TTW Weapon & Armor Rationalization

Post by **Sandloon** » Fri May 17, 2013 8:45 am

[quote=FhexSans]

[quote]And in both places, the T-45d should be RARE. The T-51b was the mainstay, its a much better platform, and in taking the T-45 down to almost non-existence, you can emphasize what quality of power armor troops the NCR is sending to Nevada. It's profound act of understatement.[/quote]

Just because the T-51b system replaced more T-45d suits in service doesn't necessarily qualify that they've become more rare than the T-51b in the wasteland. Chances are, the outdated T-45d suits would have been stored or had begun to be scrapped for parts. Given that there was only maybe a two year period between when the T-51bs were introduced and that T-45ds were prevalent, they could not have been completely phased out less completely destroyed in that time. At most, they might have been stored into warehouses all across the U.S. and perhaps parts of Canada as well, which would imply that they might be more common instead of less. I'd actually imagine you should see more of them lying about, but you should not see that many people using them because of their heavy reliance on small energy cells.

The one thing I do believe should be addressed is the complete lack of Advanced Power Armor (i.e. Remnants Power Armor) in NV specifically. I would think that either the NCR or the Brotherhood would have gotten their hands on at least some of the suits that the Enclave left behind after they both defeated them at Navarro, especially since the Advanced Power Armor apparently makes T-51b suits obsolete.

[/quote]

^ This. T-45d was deployed 9 years before T-51 was even made. That means that T-45d (being able to stomp face) was likely set to mass produce (IE Sherman tank, not the best, but it worked and was easy). Therefore, by the time the T-51b made it to the front line likely hundreds of thousands, if not millions, had been produced. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Power_armor

I had never actually considered the NCR using PA, didnt think much past the Salvaged PA that they already have. In fact, it almost makes sense that they dont have PA, (also this assumes that killing someone with PA and being able to get a full suit is ridiculous...which it is, but damn it makes me money.) because if you kill someone in a tank, most likely that tank is out of service, can parts be salvaged? yes, are you ever going to find a fully working tank? more than likely, are you ever going to piece together a fully functional tank from spare parts? not really.

Post by **charwo** » Fri May 17, 2013 9:28 pm

You guys are right, there were probably more T-45d models in 2077 than T-51b. However, the important thing is you don't see T-45s AT ALL until Fallout 3. The reason I say rare is not because of how many were made, though given the state of cheap portable energy before the early 2070s but because most of those t-45 would have been refurbished into T-51b then sent back into the field. One could say that the refurbishing plants were on the east coast, but really the lack of any T-45 variants in Fallout 1 & 2 means that T-45s should be virtually non existent. I'm quite sure the Brotherhood would have given both the Chosen One and the Vault Dweller T-45d armor instead.

The other is that if there WERE lots of T-45ds around it means in the century before FO3 and NV they should have been chewed up but good, because those earlier factions would do what NCR did and gut the machinery and use them as plate armor. It mean that the tech level to use a T-51b is substantially higher than a T-45d. However, given that NCR is using its frontline resources in Baja and elsewhere, hoping to swing around in time to meet Caesar and using the Mohave with second rate equipment and green troops to patrol, then there should be vanilla assets.

That said, I want to come back to the service rifle. Does anyone besides me hold the service rifle, being clearly of the M family is the M199 Backtalker? Cause one of the big rationalizations is that we need to guestimate what the Backtalker was, then get a pre-war version to Anchorage.

Post by **Sandloon** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:10 pm

M family (according to google) means Model. (all this gun knowledge of mine and I still looked it up, what a shame). For instance, there is the M1, M2, M4, M14, M16, M60. Those are all the ones I can name off the top of my head, none of em look similar at all really, and they all vary from semi-auto, to full auto, to LMG, to MG.

To me the Service Rifle is the AR-15 (civvie version of the M16, semi-auto). Ive always seen it as that, always will.

Also, according to the Citadel http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/M199_assault_rifle the M199 was phased out in the early 21st century, being replaced by the R91.

Also, back on the topic of T-45d, I can see what you are saying, and this is where the Lore gets iffy (thanks bethesda...) the T-45d most likely was used by the BoS that werent in the core region (gotta keep the homeland safe) which left the T-51b to be prevelant to protect it. Also, in FO1 you become part of the BoS, therefore gaining you full access to their tech. in FO2, you barely see the BoS (and I dont recall ever getting T-51 from them, just some combat armor in that bunker) and the BoS you do see is in Metal Armor (right?).

Post by **charwo** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:25 pm

The problem is that's completely in correct. Unless that exhibit model laid at the front of the Museum of Technology for decades, that display was from October 2077. The R series assault rifle was a National Guard model, based on the G-3. It might be easier to dismiss the MoT exhibit, but it's not the right thing.

And a thing about the the Brotherhood: in FO1 they were still exclusively dwelling in Lost Hills. They simply didn't have any t-45s. And in Fallout 2, there's power armor in the SF bunker, which is basically a low key observation post. That armor is t-51. And neither has Salvaged power armor. This means virtually no T-45s were in California. Probably the West Coast. The logical thing is that the T-45 as anything other than a curio is exclusively an East Coast thing. And that would be justified by having the scrapping/refurbishing plants there. As of October 2077, the T-45 was nearly all out of field deployment. That's what follows. I can't accept a Word of God retcon of in game when a logical argument is much more sensible.

Post by **Sandloon** » Fri May 17, 2013 11:45 pm

Again, this is where Bethesda dropped the soap. A logical discussion + Fallout Universe + Bethesda = Never.

Post by **charwo** » Sat May 18, 2013 2:20 pm

Well....yes and no. I'd agree with you except I heard the original creators of Fallout (the ones working at Obsidian) dislike NCR because it threatens the post apocalyptic feel of the franchise. If true, this means that they made art by happenstance, but all they've ever wanted was to sell comic books, the lowest form of entertainment that isn't porn or Twilight. And thus the theme park/comic book/douchey ignorant mockery of the 1950s that was Fallout 3 is exactly in keeping with the original vision. Honestly, it makes me not want to play Fallout anymore. They don't know what they have on their hands, and so will destroy it. Although Chris Avellone's Book of Stupid (aka the Fallout Bible) hasn't ruined Fallout.....yet. FO3's biggest problem is they were faithful to the Book of Stupid. And yes, my favorite Fallout by far was the original, before the Book of Stupid, and plausibly without the Science!

But in any case, the armors can be fudged in. But you have to be creative about it.

Post by **Sandloon** » Sat May 18, 2013 9:59 pm

See, my favorite was FO2, followed by FO1, then FNV, Tactics, then FO3. You might ask why I even bother with TTW then. Answer: I love all the games, Its just that the love I have for FO3 is like the love for a dog, whereas the others are like loving a person.

Personally I like the civilizations coming out of the dust, earth and the human race trying to rebuild something they destroyed. I also believe it was a nice transition from FO1 to FO2, going from almost nothing except small settlements, then to sprawling cities. Not quite back to normal, but the human spirit still trying to endure and overcome. This is why I think FO3 dropped the ball, they went back to complete devastation, sparce settlements with very few actual people, they also made the BoS softies and weaklings.

The Fallout Bible didnt ruin fallout in the slightest, Bethesda did...They make good quests, they do good writing and story lines, good combat and game play...But it just isnt fallout, at least not where fallout should be, especially since FO2 put mankind so much farther forward than FO1...

Now im off to replay the originals.