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TTW Weapon & Armor Rationalization

General mod discussion and requests.
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LT Albrecht
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:50 pm

That's what his file will do,

Post by LT Albrecht » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:04 am

That's what his file will do, set the sneak attack crit multiplier to 1. I've done that in my game on top of XFO AI & sneak settings, makes sneak critting everything to death much harder.


[quote]No. 20 round clip on a recharger rifle, standing up, non-VATS shooting. Dead in 2-3 seconds. That was with perks (I ran through Honest Hearts first for storytelling purposes), but it can be done. Same thing as most sharpshooters, accurate concentrated firepower over a long distance wins the day. This character tends to be weak in close quarters, but trained and equipped like a boss, she destroys all in her wake. But this requires trigger discipline on the part of the player.[/quote]


I ran a character like that before but with a .308 semi-auto FAL. The chalenge really disappears from the game when you can dump 45 dam (optionally plus DT penetration of 15) per shot onto enemies hundreds of yards away consistently and repeatedly. Current character runs a select-fire rifle of some kind (assault carbine usually) and an M72 Gauss, 2mm EC is light so 200 rounds is like 1.5lb and there is literally nothing it can't hurt, even with buffed power-armour. 


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TJ
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:06 pm

Yea XFO and every other

Post by TJ » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:13 am

Yea XFO and every other interesting little tweak I can find. Testing a scripted levelling system that uses a combination of skill books/ mags and your use of each skill to determine when to 'level up' that skill, and requiring you to level up several skills before you can actually gain a level. Perks are added based on ability with a skill instead of level, so technically you could play the whole game as like a lvl 5 char if you only level your guns skill, but level it to 100. Makes things interesting when you unlevel the wasteland...


My project Dash is on Kickstarter!



charwo
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:14 pm

Well, so then are you still

Post by charwo » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:07 am

Well, so then are you still unconvinced at the hyper breeder, with lower damage in returns for greater firepower? I think its the right kind of trade off for a highly skilled character. I don't think energy weapons should be the Godmode class. There has to be a decent tradeoff somewhere.


In any case, what about the rest? making energy weapons among non-state actors and the replacement ideas? I mean if there's going to be a rationalization it needs to be across, broadly the whole Fallout universe. And what's more the more weapons from Fallout 3 without a version in vanilla NVUE that get nixed in favor of NVUE variants saves a whole bunch of balancing issues, (plus, common, tribals with Medicine Sticks? Hell Yes.)


Any objections to the other parts of the rationalization? I like the Plasma Defender mesh, that's why I said replace the Bethesda design with it. Although, its the Bethesda PLASMA designs I abhor, I like their laser designs, especially the pistol. The problem is ergonomics: the Plasma Defender and Watts 2000 make better designs for those familiar with real world guns, including the monkey's in the Pentagon who will be recommending some weapons over other for production. I say let's get rid of the Mesatron mesh and replace it with the Bethesda laser mesh, with a different color beam for stun. Or can it and have the Mezatron be reskinned to be a unique version of the compliance regulator. That would make a lot of sense.  


So basically, no Wattz 1000 laser pistol, the unique AE7s still exist, the Plasma pistol doesn't exist outside of Mothership Zeta prototype, and the Winchester P94 is the only Plasma small arm. That and technically make Flamers an energy weapon, though no mechanical changes including requisite skill.


We also make sure lasers travel at speed of light (instantaneous) and speed up the Plasma and Alien Weapons so that their discharges travel at least as fast as a RL .45 ACP round. I would recommend doing away with the alien quasi plasma thing and turn the discharge into a blue laser beam with the aforementioned travel speed. 



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LT Albrecht
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charwo wrote:Well, so then

Post by LT Albrecht » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:13 am

[quote=charwo]Well, so then are you still unconvinced at the hyper breeder, with lower damage in returns for greater firepower? I think its the right kind of trade off for a highly skilled character. I don't think energy weapons should be the Godmode class. There has to be a decent tradeoff somewhere.[/quote]


They're expensive and heavy. Like any new tech they're inefficient and fickle, they require more maintenance and user know-how than tried and tested firearms but make up for that in being worth the hassle if you know what you're doing. They're the tool of the professional soldier, the weapon you take when you're looking for the best. There will of course have to be lower level weapons, the rechargers, a laser pistol (perhaps use the wattz as a civillian laser pistol analogous to the 9mm/10mm split in projectile pistols) and others. The laser rifle needs to be better than the service rifle, though. 


[quote=charwo]


In any case, what about the rest? making energy weapons among non-state actors and the replacement ideas? I mean if there's going to be a rationalization it needs to be across, broadly the whole Fallout universe. And what's more the more weapons from Fallout 3 without a version in vanilla NVUE that get nixed in favor of NVUE variants saves a whole bunch of balancing issues, (plus, common, tribals with Medicine Sticks? Hell Yes.)


[/quote]


I agree energy weapons shouldn't be so common outside of the hands of organised groups, however they should probably be MORE common in the hands of those groups than is shown.


[quote=charwo]Any objections to the other parts of the rationalization? I like the Plasma Defender mesh, that's why I said replace the Bethesda design with it. Although, its the Bethesda PLASMA designs I abhor, I like their laser designs, especially the pistol. The problem is ergonomics: the Plasma Defender and Watts 2000 make better designs for those familiar with real world guns, including the monkey's in the Pentagon who will be recommending some weapons over other for production. I say let's get rid of the Mesatron mesh and replace it with the Bethesda laser mesh, with a different color beam for stun. Or can it and have the Mezatron be reskinned to be a unique version of the compliance regulator. That would make a lot of sense.  [/quote]


Only in the name of variety, though there are a few decent model replacements out there that might be better than cutting the normal plasma weapons entirely. The laser rifle fits a kinda 'laser M1 Garand' aesthetic, it also looks very much like something the military hiercahy would approve. I can also see the Wattz getting the greenlight (and as suggesting in the game) finding a niche role as a laser marksman's rifle.


[quote=charwo]So basically, no Wattz 1000 laser pistol, the unique AE7s still exist, the Plasma pistol doesn't exist outside of Mothership Zeta prototype, and the Winchester P94 is the only Plasma small arm. That and technically make Flamers an energy weapon, though no mechanical changes including requisite skill.[/quote]


Flamers are already in the energy weapons class. Also, flamethrower fuel bears little resemblance to vehicle fuel, it's far more like napalm. That kind of stuff is available from sources other than oil, and would probably be easier to make in the wasteland than building (and charging) an energy cell. There's a decent model of the Fallout Tactics style P95 plasma rifle around, even one with high-quality effects and textures in Wei's FO3 version of EVE. That'd make a decent mid-level plasma weapon with the plasma caster keeping its high-level powerhouse role.


[quote=charwo]We also make sure lasers travel at speed of light (instantaneous) and speed up the Plasma and Alien Weapons so that their discharges travel at least as fast as a RL .45 ACP round. I would recommend doing away with the alien quasi plasma thing and turn the discharge into a blue laser beam with the aforementioned travel speed.[/quote] Lasers are hitscan by default, they hit in the same frame they are fired IIRC. It'd be simple enough to make alien energy weapons fire beams, so that solves that issue too. Plasma weapon projectiles can be sped up pretty easily, though speeding them up too much pretty much just renders their projectiles fancy effects and makes lasers less useful at long range when you could use a plasma weapon for high damage rather than using a laser for crits and accuracy.


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charwo
Posts: 241
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OK, now I've found using FWE

Post by charwo » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:23 am

OK, now I've found using FWE version of AA-23's Plasma rifle, which is a P94, is useful at close range and unlike FO3 plasma not as slow as a dump truck. I think EVE and FWE did a lot of the grunt work, its just that FWE probably isn't appropriate with Project Nevada. But gutting it and making a combined model would probably be the long term thing. But that's another thread.


Thing is, can you see Caesars' Legion using energy weapons? It's an honest question as Caesar does have the infrastructure to maintain laser weaponry, and they aren't removing man from his work anymore than firearms, but still Caesar is a Luddite and a cockroach....NCR on the other hand I would expect to make excellent use of laser weaponry if they had them in arsenal. But at the same time, without extensive rewriting of AI stuff, won't the NCR chew through the Fiends? I mean, with Caesar's New Regime its entirely possible to equal things out in between Caesar and NCR with the Legion having metal armor that deflects almost all laser weapons at close range. But unless you want to make Fiends Swampfolk durable (which I don't think is a bad idea) or make the fiends a lot smarter about ambush and lines of fire and cover, any rationalization of NCR weapons and armor risks overkill in Outer Vegas.


But if laser weaponry is more common among NCR and Legion, how would you put the distribution? Who gets the firearms, who gets the heavies, and who gets the laser beams? In any case do you have screens of the FOT plasma rifle?


Also, in all seriousness, I can understand the .44 round surviving, but why does anything in the 45-70 govt thing exist? I can speculate they are post war fabrications, but why the 45.70 versus a .45 ACP or a .44 Magnum? Is the Winchester 1886 somehow easier to manufacture and maintain than than an M1? If I'm a post war manufacture, I want to keep things as simple as possible: the .308 is a ubiquitous rifle round and an M1 is relatively easy to make compared to a lever action. It would make sense for tribals and and backwood people to have Brush guns in .308 as they are popular hunting platforms. If you're going to have post war rifle production, there's no reason at all to have any military weapons more primitive than an M1, and really a .308 Service rifle.



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LT Albrecht
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.45-70 is a hell of a lot

Post by LT Albrecht » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:47 am

.45-70 is a hell of a lot bigger than .45 ACP, it packs more punch than a .308 too (check out 'the box of truth'). In a world full of 7-9 foot tall mutants with semi bulletproof skin and giant jackson's iguanas with murderous claws, there's going to be a demand for really hefty calibers whether they're actually better than .308 or not. No rationalisation of anything is complete without including human stupidity, I guess.


Aren't the fiends supposed to horrifically outnumber the NCR troops in the area? I thought most of the justification for the NCR not conscript-rushing everyone like something out of an early-game Command & Conquer strategy was that they were really thinly spread covering all their positions. In dialogue we hear they zerg rushed the BoS out of Helios One, but at the time they hadn't taken the dam and McCarren. The simple answer then is for there to be more fiends, or less NCR troopers. seeings as there are half a dozen at most already having less NCR isn't really an option so it seems more fiends might well be.


I can see the legion using more firearms, but their tactics are more akin to pre-war China than the pre-war USA so I can't see Caesar and his commanders justifying the extra logistical and technological investments that fielding any significant number of energy weapons would take. However, he seems to give is Centurions some freedom as to their equipment so it's plausible that they'd pick up some energy weapons to the exclusion of their men, what with their elitist attitudes (if the two we can talk to in-game are any indication).


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charwo
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Those are good expklations,

Post by charwo » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:19 pm

Those are good expklations, however I think NCR deserves a bit more 'understanding:'


Oliver is putz. most of the best troops he's building up and storing in Hoover Dam for glorious set piece battle. More importantly, rightly or wrongly, the NCR seems to be shoring up its over extended situation by deploying most of the best in Baja pacifying that region then swinging around to the Mohave, which is what you see after dealing with the Fortification Hill Bunker. So MCCarran is deliberately being starved of men because Caesar is going to attack, and because Vegas is technically House territory, the NCR is under no moral obligation of defend Outer Vegas. This has blown up on them badly.


I also think that Caesars' Legion deserves more credit than that. They aren't doing human wave kinda things most of the time. From the lore and in game descriptions, they believe reliance on technology makes humanity weak. Legion troops are better conditioned and trained and better on the platoon level, more coordinated. And because they are refurbished tribal who know the land and how to move through it, they should be masters of stealth, recon, deep infiltration and ambush predation. They should be thought of as more akin to the NVA, never getting seen long enough for NCR's firepower to come to bear. What they do best is wipe out patrols and small until actions swiftly and completely, using surprise and close quarters combat to do the job.


They have numbers, but their tactics suit their advantages. Although like I said, this should make the Legion load out towards high caliber pistols, SMGs grenades and the occasional missile launcher. If NCR troops split up, they will be taken down one by one. If they stick close together a heavy will put a grenade of missile up their rears wiping out the whole squad in one blow. Most importantly the climate of fear they create means that green troops are more likely to make stupid mistakes. And being predators, Legionaries count on and watch diligently for those mistakes to be made.


It does help to remember that New Vegas is Operation Iraqi Freedom IN CLARK COUNTY NEVADA!!!!!



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LT Albrecht
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charwo wrote:

Post by LT Albrecht » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:32 pm

[quote=charwo]


Those are good expklations, however I think NCR deserves a bit more 'understanding:'


Oliver is putz. most of the best troops he's building up and storing in Hoover Dam for glorious set piece battle. More importantly, rightly or wrongly, the NCR seems to be shoring up its over extended situation by deploying most of the best in Baja pacifying that region then swinging around to the Mohave, which is what you see after dealing with the Fortification Hill Bunker. So MCCarran is deliberately being starved of men because Caesar is going to attack, and because Vegas is technically House territory, the NCR is under no moral obligation of defend Outer Vegas. This has blown up on them badly.


I also think that Caesars' Legion deserves more credit than that. They aren't doing human wave kinda things most of the time. From the lore and in game descriptions, they believe reliance on technology makes humanity weak. Legion troops are better conditioned and trained and better on the platoon level, more coordinated. And because they are refurbished tribal who know the land and how to move through it, they should be masters of stealth, recon, deep infiltration and ambush predation. They should be thought of as more akin to the NVA, never getting seen long enough for NCR's firepower to come to bear. What they do best is wipe out patrols and small until actions swiftly and completely, using surprise and close quarters combat to do the job.


They have numbers, but their tactics suit their advantages. Although like I said, this should make the Legion load out towards high caliber pistols, SMGs grenades and the occasional missile launcher. If NCR troops split up, they will be taken down one by one. If they stick close together a heavy will put a grenade of missile up their rears wiping out the whole squad in one blow. Most importantly the climate of fear they create means that green troops are more likely to make stupid mistakes. And being predators, Legionaries count on and watch diligently for those mistakes to be made.


It does help to remember that New Vegas is Operation Iraqi Freedom IN CLARK COUNTY NEVADA!!!!!


[/quote]


Pretty much. The legion do rely heavily on 'underhandedness'. In fact, tech level aside the NCR and Legion make good matches for the GDI and Brotherhood (funnily enough, ideologically but that's irrelevant).


The NCR (and GDI) seek conventional old-school combined arms warfare, and they excel at it. Give them a straight fight on equal terms and they will grind you into dust through a combination of well equipped troops, heavy weapons and elite units. In C&C they represent old world order, government and thinking, which lines up nicely with the NCR's approach. Contrast this with the Legion, who work far more like the Brotherhood of Nod. They make heavy use of psychological warfare, guerilla tactics, stealth, subterfuge, asymmetrical warfare and all things unconventional. They're also possessed of some incredibly high tech toys but the parallel doesn't quite extend that far. Their combat philosophy is based on avoiding conventional combat at least until the enemy is too weakened to effectively leverage their superiority there and victory is thus actually attainable. They're pretty much a parallel for every 'conventional army vs guerillas' scenario ever, but the ideology (old world government vs cult of personality centered around a messianic figure who claims said old world to have failed) was strikingly similar.


New Vegas is more Vietnam in Nevada. You've even got a tet offensive (1st Battle of Hoover dam), local 'ally' to be propped up that is far more interested in its own agenda (South Vietnam/House) and embittered locals (Khans & Fiends). Only difference is the USA had leverage over the South whereas the NCR has nothing on house.


Those legion tactics sound plausible, though in the open desert of the Mojave wouldn't more marksmanship be appropriate?


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charwo
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Absolutely!!! The question is

Post by charwo » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:09 pm

Absolutely!!! The question is, just on vanilla arms provided by NVUE, can this be shown in gameplay?


Also one thing I'd like to see are AFV transports alongside supply trucks. I model exists in a FO3 mod that puts an arms dealer with something between a Mass Effect MAKO and Bradley sitting as a private transport for the merchants. And also mortar weapon systems, which incidentally as part of the FO3 mod MERC2 (you can actually call down mortar strikes down on supermutants anywhere in the capital wasteland outdoors, and I've never seen anything cooler in a Fallout game!!!) But like I said, that's another mod idea.


Does the vanilla Ai have the ability to snipe and sharpshoot in terms of mooks? Arkansas did it very well in Minefield, but he was a unique, non spawning enemy. If they can, then yes yes and hell yes!!!



Aaron
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Why dont we list the changes

Post by Aaron » Wed May 01, 2013 5:51 pm

Why dont we list the changes in DT/DAM in weapons?


LT mentioned that DT is depressing in the current state, so lets just beef it up. And the damages we can rework to. Making and AER9 do 25 DAM, to an R-91s 15, while T-45d get bumped up to 30 DAM, hunting Rifles get knocked down to 20 DAM, and we increse the 10mm weapon damages.


What are the stats yuou think are fitting? (Please list in bullet point format)


-Aaron


-Aaron Graef Long live the Enclave, Long live AMERICA!



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