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[WIP] In-depth repair overhaul (input needed)

General mod discussion and requests.
Dynastia
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:15 pm

[WIP] In-depth repair overhaul (input needed)

Post by Dynastia » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:39 pm

So, I've come up with a new method of repairing weapons. I've made a test-version which only affects the 9mm pistol, and currently it seems to be working perfectly, but it'll take a lot of time and drudge-work to apply it to all the weapons in the game, and before I do that I want to make absolutely sure I've got all my plans in order, so I don't have to backtrack and redo a massive amount of work.


First up, a summary of what I've got so far. Then I'll explain exactly what kind of input and advice I'm looking for.


[b]How it works...[/b]


Instead of repairing through the repair menu in the pipboy, pressing a hotkey will take apart your currently equipped weapon into multiple weapon parts, each with a condition value of their own. As an example, the 9mm pistol breaks into a 9mm pistol frame, 9mm pistol barrel, a 9mm semi-auto action, and a 9mm pistol internals. The first time this happens to a weapon, it will check the condition of the weapon and then partially-randomise the condition of the parts, so that, for instance, a pistol you take from a bandit might have all its parts in average condition, or it might have a barrel in perfect condition but an almost-broken frame and action ; no matter what, the combined condition of the parts will add-up to the final condition of the weapon. The repair skill is checked on this first fieldstrip, and the parts are damaged somewhat if you have low skill ; meaning that if you find a mint weapon when you have bad repair skills, taking it apart and putting it back together will damage it a fair bit. The repair skill will not be checked on subsequent fieldstrips of the same weapon, so you don't have to worry about breaking your guns by fiddling with them too often.


Once a gun has been stripped and put back together for the first time, it will remember the condition of each of its parts, so improving your weapons condition might mean looking for that perfect-condition barrel, or maybe it's the action in your gun that's lousy, so you need to find a better one of those. When you fieldstrip it again it will check its current condition against the condition it had when you last assembled it, and degrade its component parts accordingly.


This also allows for semi-compatible parts ; for example, you might be able to repair a Marksman's Carbine with the furniture of an assault carbine, but not with it's barrel or receiver. Some weapon mods will stay as they are in vanilla, but some will take the form of an alternative weapon part ; for example, putting a long magazine on a hunting shotgun will now involve taking it apart, then putting it back together using the long tube instead of the standard (which you can discard, sell, or keep around just in case)


Finally, individual weapon parts (and some single-part weapons like pool cues and lead pipes) will be repairable at the workbench using various miscellanious items such as abraxo or duct tape, which is where your repair skill will truly come into play.


 


 


So, the type of advice I'm looking for...


[b]Gun Parts ; what should they be?[/b]


Obviously when you break apart a gun it's not going to give you the 30 or so parts that it would in real life. That would make repairing horrifically tedious and complicated. Instead you'll get about 4-5 for a semi-auto pistol, a little less for simpler weapons like breech-loaders and revolvers, a little more for SMG's and assault rifles and such. This is subject to change, obviously, but I'd really like to have it all planned out before I start implementing it.


What I want to know is, what do you think the parts should be called? Should a revolver be made up of, for example, a frame, a barrel and an action? Or should it be made up of some different combination? Also, how important is each individual part, when it comes to durability and to value? Should the barrel wear down twice as fast as the frame? Four times as fast? Half as fast? Should the action be worth more the barrel? How much more? Also, how should each part be repaired and how should the repair skill play into that. These are the sorts of judgement calls that gun-enthusiasts would know intuitively, but would be massively difficult for me to decide based solely on internet research.


So, in short, what I'm asking is for you guys to pick out a specific weapon from FNV or FO3 and tell me how you think it should be handled. I want to know what components it should break into, what percentage of the weapon's value each component should have, and how quickly each component should degrade compared to the others. I want to know if those components should be compatible with any other weapons. I want to know if any of the weapon's mods should be handled as an alternative component instead of a vanilla mod that can be added or removed without fieldstripping. I want to know which component(s) of the unique version of the weapon should decide it's 'uniqueness' (for example, the frame for Maria or the furniture for Ratslayer, or the action for Sydney's 10mm Ultra, etc.) And finally, I want to know how you think each part should be repaired, and what level of repair skill (or another skill like science, if that's more appropriate) you should need to repair it.


I realise I'm asking for a huge amount of information, but I'm hoping some of you just love to talk guns, so you won't mind helping me out a little.



JaxFirehart
Posts: 3003
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 am

I'm no gun nut so I can't

Post by JaxFirehart » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:20 pm

I'm no gun nut so I can't give much help as to how weapons work, but I am very excited to watch this mod progress.


I like the idea that stripping with low repair damages the parts, but, personally, I think that should be a consistent penalty, instead of just once.



Dynastia
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:15 pm

It won't be a problem at all

Post by Dynastia » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:03 pm

It won't be a problem at all to make that an optional choice (and I'll throw in a choice for no repair-check degrades at all). I hope nobody hesitates to throw in suggestions like that as well as the info I've specifically asked for ; to make that change right now all I have to do is edit one script. If somebody was to suggest it when I had a release candidate ready it'd mean editing hundreds of scripts, and therefore probably wouldn't happen unless they volunteered to do the cutting & pasting.


 


edit ; 


One more thing I should add; the scripts I use to track the condition of a weapons internal parts could very easily be adapted to track ammo in individual magazines. That means that if I can get my head around how the scripts in Manual Reload or Realistic Reload work, I could very easily set up a 'magazine system' where the amount (and type) of magazines the player carries are tracked, and partially spent magazines will remember how much ammo is supposed to be in them. If there's a way of changing the mesh and reload animation of a weapon on the fly, I could even set it up so that you can carry expanded mags and standard mags at the same time and use them as appropriate, and even start loading one bullet at a time directly into the chamber if all your mags are totally spent and you can't get to cover long enough to reload them (can't promise the animations will line up, though)



Sandloon
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 5:49 am

I like this idea, i

Post by Sandloon » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:58 pm

I like this idea, i especially like the above edited idea. With that being said im a bit of a gun nut, and i would love to help. Im on my phone right now so when i get home later today ill send you a message or writeup a post on here
"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it"

Sandloon
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 5:49 am

Ok, just got back home. Now I

Post by Sandloon » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:59 am

Ok, just got back home. Now I'll break down guns into a few categories. Revolvers, Semi-Auto Pistols, Bolt-Action Rifles, Lever-Action Rifles, Semi-Auto/Full-Auto Rifle/Machine Guns, Pump-Action. Sadly that would be the extent of my knowledge, things like Rocket launchers, Mini-Guns and Fatman would be up to you :P


Revolvers:


Barrel, Frame, Cylinder, Action


Semi-Auto:


Barrel, Frame, Slide, Action, Magazine


Bolt-Action Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Bolt, Magazine (model dependent)


Lever-Action Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Lever-Action, Ammo Tube


Semi-Auto Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Action, Magazine, Grip


Full-Auto Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Action, Magazine, Grip, Full-Auto Internals


Pump-Action: 


Barrel, Stock, Pump, Ammo Tube


There are also other things that could apply to most of these, for instance a Trigger, which can be upgraded, along with the action, to a light-weight 3lb trigger, for reduced Spread. A scope if there is one mounted (Sniper Rifle). Extended Magazines, Stripper Clips (if you are going with the edited idea), Bi/Tri-pods for heavier weapons (LMG), Upgraded Internals (faster shooting, less wear and tear), Bull-Barrels/Fluted Barrels (Bull is thicker, thus allowing more heat to be expelled, Fluted has grooves, expelling heat).


The list goes on really, there are any number of things you can do to a gun, the AR-15 I have is chambered for 5.56 NATO, whereas my dad has one that is chambered for 7.62 NATO. I also have a pump action .22LR sitting next to me, and a semi auto .22LR in the closet. The things you can add are literally limitless.


If you need anymore help, feel free to contact me and I would be more than happy to help you in any way possible. Good luck with the mod! 


 


"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it"

Dynastia
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:15 pm

This is excellent stuff. But

Post by Dynastia » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:43 pm

This is excellent stuff. But there are a few things I should say... 


- For scripting (and gameplay) purposes, detachable magazines won't be part of the fieldstripping/repair, since you'll be swapping them every single time you reload. They'll be misc or ammo items and have no 'condition' value assigned to them.


- I'd really like 'simpler' weapons to have less parts than more complicated ones. Revolvers, I feel, should definitely have less parts than an autoloader. For this reason I'm adding "Recoil Spring" as a component of the autoloading pistols. I'm not 100% sure that's the best choice, as I'm not certain it isn't considered part of the "action". If you can suggest a better additional part for autoloaders, please let me know.


- I'll make sure to write the scripts so that alternate parts like heavy barrels or light bolts can be added in easily, or so parts can be mixed and matched to create recalibered guns, but I'm not going to try adding in any frankensteiny guns or any improved parts except the vanilla mods until a stable and working version is out


Did you have any thoughts on the breakactions or SMGs? Lock ,stock and barrel should be sufficient for the breakactions, I think, but I'm not entirely sure what should be in a SMG or machinepistol. The same parts as a fully automatic rifle, I would guess?



Sandloon
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 5:49 am

I thought about the Magazine

Post by Sandloon » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:14 pm

I thought about the Magazine one for a while and I agree with you there. The only reason I put it is because it is quite difficult to load a Semi-Auto anything without one.

I like the Spring idea, although I wouldn't call it a recoil spring, there is another name for it I believe but I just woke up and it escapes me.
Also, remember that some revolvers, such as thr Ranger Sequoia and Hunting Revolver do FAR more damage than most semi-auto pistols, so making them easier to maintain might not be the best option.

Understandable, when you do go for that stage send me a PM and we can bounce ideas off each other if you want :D

SMGs should be the same as a Full-Auto Rifle. They are basically the samething just the SMG fires pistol rounds is all. Break-Actions I have little experience with, but I like your idea of keeping them simple.
"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it"

Dynastia
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:15 pm

I just looked over the weapon

Post by Dynastia » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:11 pm

I just looked over the weapon mods available in vanilla and there are a lot of the rifles (lever, auto and semi-auto) all have improved "receivers". Some assault rifles and SMGs also have improved "bolts". So unless I rename a bunch of weapon mods, I feel I'll have to add a Receiver part to the rifle-type weapons and something along the lines of a "Bolt Assembly" to the fully automatic weapons.


This seems fine to me because the fully-auto weapons need an extra part or two to make them more 'complex' than the autoloading pistols. I just wanted to check that they're not just different names for things you've already mentioned.



Sandloon
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 5:49 am

Lol, I forgot about those in

Post by Sandloon » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:23 pm

Lol, I forgot about those in my hurried post. The receiver is basically the rifle equivelant to the frame of a pistol. 


Here's to writing things down while reading a colllege book ;)


"If violence wasn't your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it"

User avatar
LT Albrecht
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:50 pm

Sandloon wrote:

Post by LT Albrecht » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:45 am

[quote=Sandloon]


Ok, just got back home. Now I'll break down guns into a few categories. Revolvers, Semi-Auto Pistols, Bolt-Action Rifles, Lever-Action Rifles, Semi-Auto/Full-Auto Rifle/Machine Guns, Pump-Action. Sadly that would be the extent of my knowledge, things like Rocket launchers, Mini-Guns and Fatman would be up to you :P


Revolvers:


Barrel, Frame, Cylinder, Action


Semi-Auto:


Barrel, Frame, Slide, Action, Magazine


Bolt-Action Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Bolt, Magazine (model dependent)


Lever-Action Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Lever-Action, Ammo Tube


Semi-Auto Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Action, Magazine, Grip


Full-Auto Rifles:


Barrel, Stock, Action, Magazine, Grip, Full-Auto Internals


Pump-Action: 


Barrel, Stock, Pump, Ammo Tube


There are also other things that could apply to most of these, for instance a Trigger, which can be upgraded, along with the action, to a light-weight 3lb trigger, for reduced Spread. A scope if there is one mounted (Sniper Rifle). Extended Magazines, Stripper Clips (if you are going with the edited idea), Bi/Tri-pods for heavier weapons (LMG), Upgraded Internals (faster shooting, less wear and tear), Bull-Barrels/Fluted Barrels (Bull is thicker, thus allowing more heat to be expelled, Fluted has grooves, expelling heat).


The list goes on really, there are any number of things you can do to a gun, the AR-15 I have is chambered for 5.56 NATO, whereas my dad has one that is chambered for 7.62 NATO. I also have a pump action .22LR sitting next to me, and a semi auto .22LR in the closet. The things you can add are literally limitless.


If you need anymore help, feel free to contact me and I would be more than happy to help you in any way possible. Good luck with the mod! 


 


[/quote]


I'd agree most of those are missing receivers. Also, the full-auto components will be a part of the action, they're pretty integral. I'd echo advice against magazines being a part that degrades at all for 90% of weapons, if it takes exchangeable mags (e.g. 9mm pistol, service rifle) then the magazines can be presumed to 'come with' ammunition when you buy it, and thus they can be changed out as they wear out. Having a receiver with heftier lugs on would make sense as a requisite for using the extended magazines, though.


Making full-auto weapons more complex could be achieved by adding a 'recoil buffer' or something, I know on simple weapons that amounts to a rubber pad on the back of the buttstock (and many times less than that) but it'd make more sense than  inventing an extra part for them out of nowhere.


trollolololololol





 



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