NPCs using shotguns/automatic weapons are too susceptible to DT

[Puppettron]

i just came by to mention that the 20% bleedthrough everyone's talking about is set by fMinDamMultiplier game setting, so you can adjust your personal games that way if you want.

[TJ]

[quote=Question]

Thats why i made this discussion thread so that we could discuss it. I already raised a possible solution : to give enemies slugs/AP ammo, its up to other posters to respond to it. As i mentioned, this isn't a vanilla only problem, it's a problem that affects the ported over content due to the change in DR to DT.

[/quote]

We appreciate your enthusiasm for TTW, but the proposed solution doesn't fall in line with TTW's mission statement. Honestly, technically, the SM Rebalance module doesn't fall in line with TTW's mission statement, which is why it's a permanent fixture in the Optional Files MCM. For reference that mission statement is "Something something bring Fo3 and it's DLCs up to FNV's gameplay standards something."

[Question]

I realise my proposed solution isn't perfect, infact i specifically said it was kind of brute force, and i was hoping people would come up with more ideas that would be better.

I thought part of TTW was to ensure that the gameplay would be balanced too but still remain in line with NV? I mean, that's why vault 101 security armor doesn't have the same DT as vault 34 armor and why 10mm pistols were replaced with 9mm ones right?

[TrickyVein]

At least as it's framed in the original post, any sort of 'solution' to the theoretical/apparent reduction in any weapon's effectiveness because of damage threshold would necessarily affect gameplay balance in vanilla New Vegas. 

There's no way around this that doesn't affect gameplay universally. There are simply too many weapons or pieces of armor that are shared between the two games. This is what rebalance mods are for and why people like using them so much. There are quite a few, in fact with play rather nicely with Tale of Two Wastelands.

[AnvilOfWar]

[quote=Question]

I thought part of TTW was to ensure that the gameplay would be balanced too but still remain in line with NV? I mean, that's why vault 101 security armor doesn't have the same DT as vault 34 armor and why 10mm pistols were replaced with 9mm ones right?

[/quote]

Yes, however what you have to realize is that in those changes,  FO3 content is being adapted for New Vegas. Vault 101 armor gets knocked down in DT because its the first "armor" one has access too, same for the 9mm gun, the "0 skills guys" being 9mm and Laser pistol in New Vegas.

Really I could say one more about the 10mm in Vault 101, it's actually "too good" when compared to the other weapons in base Fallout 3. The lowest tier pistols in FO3 are the Chinese pistol and then the .32 revolver. Fallout 3 has about 1/3rd total less choice in "small guns" pistols then New Vegas does. The 10mm in 101 makes for some theme sense, but not so much game balance sense.

Now compare something like the Vault 101 Security Armor vs the nearest relative of Vault 34's Security Armor. Vault 101 can be a start placement for the player, and is the recommended start as well. Vault 34 on the other hand, is across the Mojave, in the middle of irradiated areas, and full of feral ghouls.  With 1 exception IIRC, all the suits are in the sealed armory section of the vault, along with a mass pile of guns/ammo/ect. Vault 34 is a much later game area and requires quite a bit of preperation to enter and be successful in, ie rad meds, rad suit, enough ammo, ect.

The most important thing to remember about TTW is this: Fallout 3 content adapts to serve Fallout New Vegas, -not- the other way around.

[RoyBatty]

The 10mm in 101 is also about 15% durability, and the way repair worked in FO3 there was no way to get that pistol to 100% for quite a long time. In New Vegas this is a trivial matter of finding a few more 10mm's. In FO3 weapon sway was also a lot more exaggerated, which made this powerful weapon very ineffective at the early levels. I hope you can see where I'm going with this. ;)

[subtledoctor]

Sorting through the various issues liked together here, I think the OP does make an important point. Having DT higher than your enemies' DAM results in, effectively, 80% DR. Kameraden is correct that in vanilla FO3, it was a fairly simple matter to bump your DR up to the 70-80% range. So what's the difference?

Well, the difference is that in FO3 you couldn't reach that range until mid-way through the game. You had to spend at keast a couple hour roaming around with 15-25% DR. Whereas in TTW, the free armor you get right outside the vault gives you 80% DR against shotguns and assault rifles. 

One simple way to balance this suggested above, which I might try in my next playthrough, is to raise fMinDamMultiplied to like 50%. Could be a very simple and interesting alternative to something like RWED. 

More pie-in-the-sky, it would be interesting to see if the various DT-enhancing perks (Toughness, sub-dermal armor, etc.) could be kept separate and distinct from DT granted by armor. Then you would have some interesting choices, you could dress in a pre-war suit le Burke and look boss with ~10DT, or you could strap on some armor and hit levels around 20DT... but they wouldn't stack and put you in the God-mode 30-35 range. 

But anyway, these are both more ideas for mods than for baseline TTW.

[RoyBatty]

I've done a lot of testing with RWED (+PN) and it's balanced pretty well atm. I'm late playthrough level 51.5, hellfire armor, 76 DT and 26 DR. I just did the tunnel and got my ass handed to me about 20 times before I was able to complete it. I can definitely take more hits that I could without hellfire armor, but with 2-3 enclave ripping you at the same time with plasma/gauss/tri beam rifles you get destroyed quickly.

 

[subtledoctor]

<p>Yeah but RWED makes a *lot* more changes to how the game works than just fixing this issue, and any given player might not prefer all of the changes. It might be *an* answer, but it's certainly not *the* answer. </p>

<p>EDIT - another way to deal with the broader balance issue is to simply nerf a ton of armors. Bring light armors down to the range of 3-7 DT; bring medium/combat armors down to ~9-13; and have heavy/power armors around 15-20. Make Toughness +2DT and sub-dermal armor +3DT. That might be fun... but, a lot of work. And still the job of a mod, not the TTW team.</p>

[RoyBatty]

Everyone's idea of balance is different you see. So choose or make the mods that suit you.