On the Subject of Power Armor Balance

[EnderDragonFire]

As I have said before, and continue to maintain, the stats used in TTW do not accurately reflect current Fallout lore because they place more value on older lore than newer lore and ignore Fallout 3's ret-cons of Fallout 2 lore. I am making this post to suggest an alternative armor progression for TTW that I feel better reflects post-Bethesda Fallout canon. Ideally, this would go into an optional file, to avoid upsetting people who prefer the current progression.

Later games should always take precedence over earlier ones when determining canon, this is generally true for any fictional series, because otherwise creators could not change earlier decisions they no longer agreed with. Which means that when Fallout 3 made Mark II APA worse than T-51b, it overwrote and nullified any contrary lore found in Fallout 2. Since Mark II APA does not appear in New Vegas (or Fallout 4), there is no newer lore which could take precedence over Fallout 3 with regards to APA Mark II. Thus canonically, Mark II APA is canonically the armor seen in Fallout 3, with it's distinctly different appearance and statistics compared to its (older, defunct) Fallout 2 incarnation. Which meant that the lore regarding power armor was this:

Fallout 2: APA Mark II was better than APA Mark I, and both models were better than T-51. 

+

Fallout 3: APA Mark II was inferior to T-51. (APA Mark II was still better than APA Mark I, per Fallout 2). 

=

Lore: APA Mark II is inferior to T-51, APA Mark I is inferior to APA Mark II, thus both models are inferior to T-51.

New Vegas changed the lore even further when it added APA Mark I into that game. This version of APA Mark I was better than T-51b. Meaning that the older lore about it being worse than Mark II APA must be incorrect. How so? Because Fallout 2 cannot take precedence over the newer games, either Fallout 3 or Fallout New Vegas. 

Fallout 2: APA Mark II was better than APA Mark I, and both models were better than T-51. 

+

Fallout 3: APA Mark II was inferior to T-51. (APA Mark II was still better than APA Mark I, per Fallout 2). 

+

New Vegas: APA Mark I was superior to T-51. (APA Mark II was not depicted, thus Fallout 3 depiction stays canon)

=

Lore: APA Mark I is superior to T-51, T-51 is superior to APA Mark II, APA Mark II is inferior to both T-51 and APA Mark I

 

So, I personally believe that the armor progression which Bethesda intends to be canon is the following:

T-45d > APA Mark II > T-51b/Hellfire > APA Mark II 

(How Fallout 4's armors fit into the scheme is unclear, since we don't know if X-01 is meant to be APA Mark I, APA Mark II, or something else entirely. Fortunately, this is not an issue TTW has to wrangle with. Theoretically, T-60 would be better than T-51 armor and Hellfire, and its relation to APA Mark I hinges on whether or not X-01 is meant to be APA Mark I or not. Hopefully, Bethesda will clear this up in future Fallout titles.)

Why is Hellfire equal to T-51? Because it only appeared in one Fallout game, which was Fallout 3, where it was depicted as equal to T-51. IF: Hellfire = T-51 AND: APA Mark I > T-51 THEN: APA Mark I > Hellfire

I understand that some people feel that this is illogical: Why would a weaker armor replace a stronger armor? The reality is that that question is unanswered. There are many reasonable explanations, such as cost effectiveness, ease of repair, ease of transport, or better environmental protection. However, any explanation is pure speculation. That means that the armor progression is has no logical in-universe explanation. That said, IMO "Realism" based changes don't really justify ignoring established Fallout canon. Ghouls are not realistic, the FEV is not realistic, Fallout plasma weapons are not realistic, radiation levels in Fallout 3 and New Vegas are not realistic; Fallout as a franchise is not meant to reflect the way things work in real life. The Enclave is an extension of the prewar US military. The prewar US military did many things which were not logical, such as developing shoulder-mounted nukes, giant robots, and other highly impractical military technologies. The armor downgrade could have been for any number of reasons and not been out of character for the Enclave. Whatever the reason, I am personally quite certain that the armor WAS downgraded from Mark I to Mark II in Fallout canon. 

So, please consider adding an optional file which reverts the armor stats to those found naturally in Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas. APA Mark II should have the same armor as T-45 just like it did in Fallout 3, and Hellfire should have the same armor as T-51. 

If you are unwilling to consider this proposal, I will probably just make a mod myself that does this, but I really feel like these options should be part of an official TTW optional file. I hope my reasoning is clear and that you will find this post useful. 

Sincerely,

EnderDragonFire

[darthbdaman]

The Mark 2 in 3 is, I am absolutely certain, the same one in Fallout 2, which is superior, vastly so, to Mark 1. Fallout 3 didn't recon this, despite what the stats say. Terminal entries refer to the greatness of the Mark 2, and scribes speak in awe about how awesome it is. In reality it's identical to the Brotherhoods own armor. This is ridiculous. Fallout 3 doesn't have any respect for its own lore, let alone that of Fallout.

At the end of the day, later games do not, necessarily, replace old games. This is further complicated, as New Vegas tends to be more similar to Fallout 2 than 3, despite 2 coming before 3. Some things have to be discarded and, frankly, most of those have to come from Fallout 3. New Vegas, effectively, clarifies which parts of Fallout 2 & 3 are canon. It allows some things from Fallout 2 to take precedence again, and some things from 3 to override 2. This is the balance that we are trying to maintain.

[EnderDragonFire]

"At the end of the day, later games do not, necessarily, replace old games."

"Some things have to be discarded and, frankly, most of those have to come from Fallout 3."

"New Vegas, effectively, clarifies which parts of Fallout 2 & 3 are canon"

"It allows some things from Fallout 2 to take precedence again"

I respect your opinion and stance here, and I respectfully disagree. If the TTW team chooses to apply this philosophy, so be it. I will make a mod that fixes the armor myself. I believe that Bethesda is the IP holder of Fallout. They own it, and they decide canon. They made Fallout 4, and will likely make more Fallout games in the future. Obsidian was GIVEN, by Bethesda, the privilege of making New Vegas. They were not given any sort of ownership over the franchise, and thus don't determine what is canon. New Vegas may have helped to explain how Fallout 1 and 2 can be adapted into Bethesda's new lore, but it does not have the power to overturn Bethesda's lore. Even if it did, there is nothing in New Vegas that directly contradicts the armor progression of Fallout 3.

The way ret-cons have always worked, in basically every series I have seen, is that newer material does, in fact, ALWAYS take precedence of older material. The fans may not like it, they may choose to ignore the canon, but that never changes the fact that the newer material does overturn the old. Death of the author may be a popular philosophy but it is not one that most authors agree with, or one I find particularly respectful of content creators.  

If there was an actual conflict between New Vegas and Fallout 3, I would understand why Fallout 3 might lose. After all, New Vegas is newer, and was sanctioned and published by Bethesda. However, the salient conflict here is between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3, and I simply cannot fathom how Fallout 2 could ever win such a conflict. 

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my thread; I wish I could convince you to make these changes, but even if I cannot, it is good to know where the team stands on this issue. I will just have to make the mod myself. 

[darthbdaman]

TTW doesn't have to abide by "canon" (although there is no Fallout canon, nor does Bethesda give a shit about continuity within or between their own games, let alone those of other developers). New Vegas is the ultimate Fallout property with respect to TTW. It came last, and is the reference point for everything else within the project.

I do think you're missing the more important part of my argument though, upon which every decision rests. Fallout 3 does not respect it's own internal continuity. In Fallout 3, the Advanced Power Armor Mark 2 is an awesome piece of equipment, which scares the BoS scribes. However in Fallout 3 the "Enclave Power Armor" is also a low tier item which is worse than the Brotherhood's own equipment. This is not reconcilable, and this is not how New Vegas works.

In the interests of disclosure, I have created a few different acceptable armor progressions. There are only 3, which I would consider valid, given the information in all the games. Those are:

Type 1 (5 Tiers): T-45d, T-51b, APA or Remnants, APA Mk2, Hellfire

Type 2 (4 Tiers): T-45d, T-51b or APA, APA Mk2 or Remnants, Hellfire

Type 3 (4 Tiers): T-45d, T-51b or APA Mk2, APA or Remnants, Hellfire

3.0 will use Type 1. The other 2 are valid, and don't directly conflict with the information within the games. However neither of them feel right. I would rather that the Remnants Armor and APA are the same, and not treated differently. They look the same, and it wouldn't feel right otherwise, which rules out Type 2. Type 3 relies on making the "Mark 2" armor worse than the regular version. There isn't anything strictly wrong with this, but it rubs me the wrong way, and flies in the face of FO2. FO2 inconsistency isn't a deal breaker, but I would still rather not have it, so I ruled out Type 3. (Also important note, the FO2 APA Mk2 is supposed to look different than the Mk1, and is described differently)

Hopefully that betters explains the design process

[EnderDragonFire]

"TTW doesn't have to abide by "canon"

Of course not. I never said it had to. I said "If the TTW team chooses to apply this philosophy, so be it. I will make a mod that fixes the armor myself." I don't expect the team to acquiesce to my every whim; that does not mean I won't share my personal opinion on the matter in a constructive way and offer suggestions that I think would improve the mod. 

"Fallout 3 does not respect it's own internal continuity. In Fallout 3, the Advanced Power Armor Mark 2 is an awesome piece of equipment, which scares the BoS scribes. However in Fallout 3 the "Enclave Power Armor" is also a low tier item which is worse than the Brotherhood's own equipment. This is not reconcilable, and this is not how New Vegas works."

I did not miss this point. I am aware that the written lore contradicts the shown lore. I just think that the shown lore is more important. What an in-universe character says or writes is not necessarily correct; just like in real life, people can make mistakes, hold misconceptions, and purposely lie about things. Bethesda does this ALL THE TIME in their Elder Scrolls Series, with different in game characters, books, and factions espousing conflicting statements.

What actually appears in the game, what the player and player-character can observe for themselves, is much more likely to reflect the actual in-universe reality. We known dragons exist in TES, not because somebody said "dragons exist," but because we meet dragons. We known deathclaws exist in Fallout, not because somebody said so, but because we have seen them ourselves. In my opinion, those scribes are simply wrong; they can say what they want, but I have played the game, worn the armor, killed the Enclave soldiers, and it is inferior to the T-51 in basically every way. Their fear is misplaced, based on mistaken memories of a decades old conflict on the other side of the contenant. 

I mean hell, for all we know, the Enclave Armor ISN'T the APA Mark II at all. It isn't called that by the game, it is called that by in-universe characters. Scribes are smart and educated, they aren't infallible. If they have not seen Enclave troops since Fallout 2, they might have misidentified what they are up against in Fallout 3. That is one way to reconcile the difference. Prioritizing what they say over what we see as the player, what the Dev's actually put in the game, just seems wrong to me. 

 

[darthbdaman]

I mean the devs put both in the game. There's no reason to pick the in game statistics over the lore statistics, we could use either. This is also vastly different than having someone be merely mistaken. This isn't the info in a book being wrong for a reason. There isn't any reason for the BoS to be wrong, and the game itself doesn't take the position that they are wrong. Nowhere in the game is it implied that the Enclave aren't all they're cracked up to be. More importantly the BoS aren't theorizing that's the advanced mark 2. They know that from FO2. Casdin has seen the armor before. They know what it is. It does not make sense for them to be wrong.

[EnderDragonFire]

I see your point. I tend to go with what the game shows rather than what in-universe people say, simply because this is a game developed by Bethesda. They don't exactly have a good track record for implementing their written lore into the games they make. I don't feel that *they* treat in-universe statements as more important than what is actually in the game, since they go around contradicting them all the time.

For example, there is a book in Skyrim and Oblivion, titled "Immortal Blood," that states that Volkihar vampires can phase through ice and breath under water. The book was written by an in universe character who had no reason to be wrong; not only was he a vampire from the oldest and most powerful vampire clan in the world, but he was a scholar who dedicated centuries of his existence studying vampires! Despite this he was indeed wrong, as anyone who has played Skyrim knows. You can become a Volkihar vampire and interact with dozens of other Volkihar vampires, and NONE of them exhibit these powers or even mention them. 

Sure, it is possible that Bethesda simply dropped the ball and forgot what they wrote in that book. However, considering that the book appears in Skyrim itself, as well as earlier and later games, it seems unlikely that they did not know about these powers being attributed to said vampires. The other explanation is that they *intended* the book the be wrong. Given that this is just one of dozens of examples of Bethesda doing this, I am inclined to believe that they do this on purpose, rather than assuming they are simply bad at developing continuity. 

Which brings me back to the scribes. Yes, it is possible that the people who wrote the dialog genuinely though the armor was going to be super powerful. However, if that were the case, why didn't anyone change the dialog later? Or make the armor match the dialog? Why did they let the contradiction ship with the game if they were not fine with the scribes being wrong? My guess is that they (the developers) were trying to make it seem like the Brotherhood were scared of the Enclave based upon their past encounters with them, and not with the actual current capacity of the Enclave's military. 

As for why they would be wrong? You got me. I have no idea, perhaps because it had been a LONG time since any of them had actually seen APA Mark II. Casdin does not seem much older than 50 at most, which means he was probably still a child when Navarro was destroyed. He remembers what enclave armor looks like, but he might not be able to distinguish various models from one another. He himself even comments on how "long" it has been since he last saw a similar suit of armor, implying that the Outcasts and/or Lyon's Chapter don't have Enclave armor lying around. If the armor in Fallout 3 look similar to the armor from Navarro, that might be enough to lead to misidentification. 

I understand that the games don't mesh that great, and that the team is doing its best to piece together the various bits of conflicting information. I personally don't agree with your solution, but I understand how you got there.

I might feel differently if I was more fond of Fallout 2; of the various options you listed, option 3 seems the most logical to me, but I explicitly reject that Fallout 2 has any priority over Fallout 3. I understand that many people are quite fond of that game and want Fallout 3 and thus TTW to be more compatible with its lore. 

[darthbdaman]

Something that doesn't get brought up is that T-51b wasn't added into Fallout 3 until very late in development. It doesn't have an icon, and it just replaced the medic armor, which was then thrown into old Olney. There is no concept art of the T-51b, and pretty clearly wasn't even considered until late in development.

This is important because all the PA's in the game are statistically really similar. There's very little variation between them (except the T-51b). This is because Bethesda wanted the factions to be basically equivalent. Game balance took precedence over stats. It's entirely possible Beth just winged a lot of the stats. There really wasn't all that much thought put into how the progression in the game actually works. Lots of stuff feels pretty haphazard.

[EnderDragonFire]

Huh. I was not aware of that. I am sure balance did factor into the decisions they made, if the Enclave had all had three times as much armor as the Brotherhood, it would have changed the game rather drastically, especially with the DR system used in Fallout 3.

[RoyBatty]

Lore aside, We also have to consider balance, item progression, and if the item serves a purpose in the game play.

In this case, which the game play is more important than any canon from any of the games, then darth's choice also works and is the one we've chosen to use. There are many many factors to consider with everything, as Josh has said himself, it may look good on paper, but balance can only be determined by test playing.