APA MKI needs to go.

[TrickyVein]

We've also thrown around the idea that some of the Enclave forces in DC are refugees from the Core region, after the Oil Rig was blown up. How they got to DC was by train, arriving at Union Station. So we could rationalize the presence of APA in DC in that way as well.

Actually, even without our bit of fanfic, Fallout 3 pretty much says the same thing. The enclave forces at Raven Rock came from the West coast. It would not be surprising if some soldiers wore old suits of armor. That would also suggest that the new armor we see in Fallout 3 should be superior to the APA units, but that doesn't follow the progression of relative strength of armors that was laid out in the OP.

[EnderDragonFire]

[quote=TJ]

 

This is another one of those "My preference is this, and I'm presenting my preference as fact so it should be done to my preference" threads.

[/quote]

No. I am giving you feedback on the mod, which is the purpose of this forum. 

@Jax

This is my reasoning for how I ranked the armors.

T-45d:

T-45d is the first functional model of power armor deigned by Wes-Tek. It is heavier, less durable, and more restrictive than later models of power armor. Statistically, it has 200 less health than "Black Devil" MKII APA, and incurs a higher agility penalty.

(Sources: Citadel terminal entries, FNV Dialogue (Elder McNamara). Fo3 and FNV gameplay, GECK statistics)

"Black Devil" APA MKII:

This version of APA MKII was deigned by the Enclave after they fled to the east coast. It is made entirely from lightweight composites. It is better at environmental protection than pre-war models, and is more durable. Statistically, it provides more radiation resistance and is more durable than T-45b, and incurs a lower agility penalty.

(Sources: Fo3 Dialogue (Casdin, BoS Scribes and Knights), Fo3 Gameplay, GECK)

Tesla MKII (DC):

Tesla armor is based off of pre-war blueprints designed by Nicola Tesla. This version of Tesla armor is based upon the "Black Devil" armor, and sports higher radiation resistance, and slightly higher protection. It is also much more durable and provides greater resistance to energy weapons. Statistically, it has 300 more health than normal "Black Devil" power armor, and provides 5 more points of radiation resistance, along with 10 points of energy resistance.

(Sources: Fo2 Notes, Fo3 Gameplay, GECK)

T-51b:

This model of power armor was the last version developed by Wes-Tek before the great war. It is made from a mix of metal and composite plates, and provides better radiation and damage protection than either "Black Devil" or T-45d power armor. The winterized version used in anchorage Alaska is slightly less protective.

(Sources: Fo1 Gameplay, Fo2 Gameplay, Fo2 Dialogue, Fo3 Gameplay, Fo3 Dialogue, FNV Gameplay, FNV Dialogue)

MKI APA:

 

This model of Adanced Power Armor was the first model of power armor to surpass the T-51b in protection. It was designed by Enclave Scientists after the great war, to give them a technological edge over the wasteland factions. It provides more radiation resistance and damage resistance than earlier models of power armor.

(Source: Fo2 Gameplay, Fo2 Dialogue, Fo2 Notes, *possibly FNV Gameplay)

MKII APA:

A direct upgrade from the MKI APA, this armor was also designed by the Enclave. It is more protective than the first version, and provides more radiation protection.This is the most advanced model of power armor. The only possible disadvantage is that is weights 5 pounds more than the first version.

(Source: Fo2 Gameplay, Fo2 Dialogue, Fo2 Notes, *possibly FNV Gameplay)

Hellfire PA: **

This power armor was designed by the Enclave on the east coast. It is the first version of east coast PA to equal the T-51b in defensive power. It is made from Duraframe, an alloy that provides a high resistance to fire damage.

(Sources: Fo3 Gameplay, Fo3 Dialogue, FNV Dialogue)

*The Remnants PA could be either MKI or MKII APA. 

** Placed Incorrectly in my first chart. It is actually equal in power with T-51b, or slightly better.

P.S. I did not include charisma bonuses/penalties and faction effects in calculations. These are "human" responses to the armors and are irrelevant to thier defensive capabilities.

 

@TrickyVien If the BoS could not maintain their T-51b armors across the country, the enclave would likely face similar problems. And as for your second point, the lore is petty clear. The power armor seen in Fo3 is inferior to earlier models of APA. The Enclave lost all their research and manufacturing capacity at Navarro and had to rebuild from scratch. This is why Colonel Autumn considered the Hellfire Armor such a high priority.

 

[JaxFirehart]

Exactly WHAT FO3 dialog? What FNV dialog? Which terminal entries? If you post sources they should be specific enough to find exactly what you are referring to. We don't care about FO3 stats, Bethesda was not true to lore when they made T51b superior than APA MK2.

Finally, if you look in the FNV files, you can see that they converted APA MK2 (Enclave Armor) over to the DT system before, presumably, deciding not to include it.

The FNV game files establish this hierarchy (in terms of DT):

Tesla MK2 (20 DT)

T45 (22 DT)

T51 (25 DT)

Remnants Tesla (25 DT)

Remnants (28 DT)

APA2(32 DT)

So clearly, the gentlemen at Obsidian felt that the Black Devil APA2 is superior to the Remnants armor. It is strange that Tesla MK2 took such a hit; perhaps Obsidian decided not to use it before they finalized Power Armor stats.

The TTW progression is thus:

T45 (22 DT)

APA1 (24 DT)

T51 (25 DT)

Tesla MK1 (25 DT)

APA2 (West Coast) (Unrepresented)

APA2 (East Coast) (26DT)

Tesla MK2 (26 DT)

Remnants (Unique West Coast APA2) (28 DT)

Hellfire (30 DT)

You will notice we rearranged the DTs quite a bit, this was due to balance concerns. I'm not happy with it as it sits and plan to revisit and rethink it. But the suggestion that APA1 be dropped is unlikely to happen.

[paragonskeep]

I may be off base here but if IIRC from some articles that I read the reason the Tesla armor was lacking in the defense portion was due to the increase for energy weapons while wearing it. Basically the room needed for the extra circuits replaced aspects of armor and thus the lower DT. Less protection for greater firepower aspects 

[Puppettron]

that's just fluff for balancing, tbh

[EnderDragonFire]

 "Bethesda was not true to lore when they made T51b superior than APA MK2."

Jax? You do realize that Bethesda owns the series, right? They changed the lore, not broke it. Even Josh Sawyer admits that his older work takes lower precedence than Fo3. And cut content is really being used for lore? The statistics taken from the New Vegas were never actually in-game. And why would that break the lore, anyway? Why is it hard to think hat there would be two totally different armors with the same designation? One weaker than T-51b and one stronger?

If you really want to keep APA MKI, you should at least make it match it's stats from Fo2. The enclave made it specifically to be better than T-51b, which it was in-game. 

But, I digress. If the TTW team has already established it's own progress, I will respect a difference in opinion here. Because, really, that all that this debate is about. Bethesda says all of the three main games are 100% canon... which, frankly, is impossible. Everyone has to come up with their own explanation for the inconsistencies, and you guys are doing the best job you can, given the odd circumstances of this mod.

 

[Puppettron]

and honestly, none of us would be at all bothered if a mod for this issue showed up

[JaxFirehart]

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]"Bethesda was not true to lore when they made T51b superior than APA MK2."

 

Jax? You do realize that Bethesda owns the series, right? They changed the lore, not broke it.[/quote]

Exactly. Beth changed the lore. Obsidian remained true to lore. So we are stuck in a superposition where T-51b is simultaneously the best in the wasteland and also second to last in the wasteland. Technically, FNV came last and was sanctioned by Bethesda, so FNV lore supersedes anything else. There is also the balance related problem of having T51b much more common in FNV. In FO3 it was a unique suit of armor and, being unique, was quite powerful. In FNV it's uncommon but not unique. If we maintain T51b as being on par with Hellfire then we greatly reduce the allure of Hellfire PA.

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]Even Josh Sawyer admits that his older work takes lower precedence than Fo3.[/quote]

I'd love to read that, can you link me?

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]And cut content is really being used for lore? The statistics taken from the New Vegas were never actually in-game. [/quote]

I never said it was "lore" I was using the evidence we had.

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]And why would that break the lore, anyway? Why is it hard to think hat there would be two totally different armors with the same designation? One weaker than T-51b and one stronger?[/quote]

It's not hard to think, but what makes more sense:

The Enclave makes APA1 to replace T51b, then the Enclave makes APA2 that is worse than APA1 and T51b in every way.

The Enclave makes APA1 to replace T51b, then the Enclave makes APA2 to replace APA1. T51b is now even more obsolete.

Who in their right mind says: We have this APA1 power armor that has surpassed T51b in every way, so we are going to design a really shitty power armor that is worse that T51b in every way and make THAT one our default. You don't step backwards like that.

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]If you really want to keep APA MKI, you should at least make it match it's stats from Fo2. The enclave made it specifically to be better than T-51b, which it was in-game.[/quote]

[quote="TJ"]The stats are off for a lot of things as we've not finalized balance for FO3. Thanks for your input though. [/quote]

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]But, I digress. If the TTW team has already established it's own progress, I will respect a difference in opinion here. Because, really, that all that this debate is about. Bethesda says all of the three main games are 100% canon... which, frankly, is impossible. Everyone has to come up with their own explanation for the inconsistencies, and you guys are doing the best job you can, given the odd circumstances of this mod.[/quote]

This isn't a difference in opinion thing, if it were I would have ignored you and closed the topic almost immediately. This is a discussion of lore that has to deal with inconsistencies. When said inconsistencies pop up we use logic to resolve them. Convince me with logic, facts, and concrete references and I will do whatever you suggest. Being true to lore is important to me, but game flow and gameplay are more important.

[EnderDragonFire]

[quote="JaxFireHart"]

[quote="EnderDragonFire"]And why would that break the lore, anyway? Why is it hard to think hat there would be two totally different armors with the same designation? One weaker than T-51b and one stronger?[/quote]

It's not hard to think, but what makes more sense:

The Enclave makes APA1 to replace T51b, then the Enclave makes APA2 that is worse than APA1 and T51b in every way.

The Enclave makes APA1 to replace T51b, then the Enclave makes APA2 to replace APA1. T51b is now even more obsolete.

Who in their right mind says: We have this APA1 power armor that has surpassed T51b in every way, so we are going to design a really shitty power armor that is worse that T51b in every way and make THAT one our default. You don't step backwards like that.

[/quote]

Well, actually, I always thought it was more like "The Enclave makes APA1 to replace T51b, then the Enclave makes APA2 to replace APA1. T51b is now even more obsolete. Then Navarro is destroyed, and they are forced to abandon all research and flee across the wasteland. Apon urivng in DC, they create another, weaker armor, which shares the designation with APA2.

I did always find it odd that this armor (which looks and behaves nothign like the fo2 armor) is even called APA. Back when I played Fo3, I thought perhaps they gave it the same designation because it used similar hardware?

Another theory is that perhaps Henry Casdin is simply mistaken about it actually being APA MKII? He is the only one, IIRC, who calls it that in-game. The concept art calls it T-52a, and the BoS only call it "black devil". In your inventory it is just called "encalve armor" (in a game where T-45d is called "power armor", so this might not mean much)

Anyway, do whatever you think is best for balance. I know that you TTW guys have to sort through this mess and try to make a working game out of it. In the end, only time (and future games) will tell where the various armors actually fall in the ranking, and there are certainly more games supporting your viewpoint than mine. I really wish that we did not have to have this discussion, and the developers had been more consistent with their games.

[Puppettron]

what if i want the last word?