[quote=Risewild]why change the Perks that were not in FNV to DT if keeping them as it is doesn't really affect playability or break immersion in any way...
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Why keep them as is if chugging the drink/ potion/ med combo maxes out your DR anyway? That alone makes DR perks pretty worthless in the grand scheme of things.
My project Dash is on Kickstarter!
you can amazingly avoid getting addicted to wearing armor though.
I've read through quite a bit of the comments here and am excited to see that this is current and being discussed.
Please allow me to offer my 2 cents.
I think that its fairly important to keep some DR perks for the simple reason that the Weapons and particularly the "shotgun class" weapons are not going to handle a complete shift to DT.
Background on Shotguns (not that you dont know but going to explain it anyway)
Damage, done per pellet of shot. Means ussually a shot is actually 7 smaller damage shots.
7x8 <means 7 shots 8 damage each.
Well with DT (damage threshold) we basically deduct the DT from the damage and we have the amount that gets through.
Lets look at basic Raider Armor, it has DT of 4.
The Damage for our shotgun becomes
7X4 thats 7 shots at 4 damage each.
Against Vault Security Armor, DT 8
7x0 thats 7 shots no damage. With the exception that there is always a minimum bleedthrough I think its about 20%
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I know this is not a popular go to example but if the Fo3 perks all become DT we should expect to see other weapons start to lose their effectiveness and the gameplay to lose its appeal as it becomes too easy.
My thinking is that if I can pick up Megaton perk with DT and Oasis Perk with DT then I quickly can have a whole lot of DT by around level 12. With Toughness thrown into the lot I might think that with that shift a DT of 12 with no armor would be possible with just 4 perks...
That is if the perks changed to DT.
Megaton Perk - 3 DT (seems small right?)
Barkskin- 3 DT (also seems small)
Toughness Rank 1- 3 DT
Toughness Rank 2- 3 DT
So thats 12 DT...Useing Metal armor which is feasible by this time that means I have another 12 DT for a total of 24...Rendering all shotguns ineffective and a whole large segment of pistol class weapons as well.
Examples of pistols that are ineffective
9mm, 10mm, 22, 9mm submachine gun,
just a few Im sure there are many more.
OK with your setup, assuming all FO3 perks become DT your character would take 20% damage from any source less than 30DT (Weapons start doing more than 20% damage at 1.25x DT). This would cause the following weapons to do minimum damage: Police Pistol, .45 Auto Pistol, 5.56mm Pistol (That Gun), .357 Revolver (Lucky), 10mm Pistol (Weathered), 9mm Pistol (Maria), Silenced .22 Pistol, Marksman Carbine (All-American), Light-Machine Gun (Bozar), Service Rifle, Varmint Rifle (Ratslayer), Assault Carbine, BB Gun (Abilene Kid), Nail Gun, Silenced. 22 SMG, 9mmSMG (Vance's), 10mmSMG(Sleepytyme), .45 Auto SMG, All Shotguns, Shoulder Mounted Machine Gun, K9000, Minigun (Avenger), Laser Pistol, Recharger Pistol (Hyperbreeder), Laser Rifle, Laser RCW, Recharger Rifle, Gatling Laser. I ignored explosives because their damage is harder to calculate, and melee because I got tired of typing.
I'm going to throw some math the opposite direction:
You have metal armor 12DT, both Toughness ranks 6DT, WSG Perk 6DR, Barkskin 5DR
Your total would be 18DT and 11 DR, your character would take 20% damage from any source less than 25DT
The following items would penetrate that wouldn't before: .357 Revolver (Lucky), 5.56mm pistol (That Gun), .45 Auto, Police Pistol, K9000, Shoulder Mounted Machine Gun, MF Hyperbreeder Alpha. So it only really makes a difference for pistols.
Note that you didn't include ALL the DR/DT perks and as you layer more and more on, the gap there closes.
Most importantly, in my proposed setup, the WSG (Megaton) perk would remain +6 DR and Barkskin would become +2 DT, resulting in 6DR, 20DT or 27 min damage, which is right in the middle.
I'm glad your keen on what could happen Jax.
I just listed some perks and examples mostly so that if people that were not heavily into modding the game came into your discussion that they might feel more informed about why your desicion here is important.
Not sure about power gamers though...Fallout series plays pretty heavy into that gaming trend.
I feel quite satisfied that your aware of the issue and need for balance though :)
Thanks for letting me drop in 2 cents.
[quote=gamefever]I just listed some perks and examples mostly so that if people that were not heavily into modding the game came into your discussion...[/quote]
This is why we normally reserve this type of discussion for the TTW Team forum. 
We know there's balancing to be done, and I don't think it was ever intended to remove DR completely from anything. Things need to be adjusted, but hey - what doesn't with TTW?
My project Dash is on Kickstarter!
what i like best about DR, without doing the math, is that the only things that completely ignore it also completely ignore your DT and deathclaws are just a pain to fistfight to begin with.
[quote=Puppettron]
what i like best about DR, without doing the math, is that the only things that completely ignore it also completely ignore your DT and deathclaws are just a pain to fistfight to begin with.
[/quote]
I only fight them with my trusty SPORK.
[quote=TJ]
why change the Perks that were not in FNV to DT if keeping them as it is doesn't really affect playability or break immersion in any way...
Why keep them as is if chugging the drink/ potion/ med combo maxes out your DR anyway? That alone makes DR perks pretty worthless in the grand scheme of things.
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But it also makes the DT perks useless in the grand scheme of things .
I made some loose calculations in relation to converting ALL of the DR Perks to DT so I could check at which point would DR and DT perks be useless. So let's see:
All of those loosely converted to DT:
And I found out that at first indeed the DR give a bit of advantage, which I had no idea, but now I do 
Assuming that the damage is 40 here is the calculations:
40 damage - 34% DR = 26.4 damage
40 damage - 11 DT = 29 damage
So we can see that not using any other armor or anything else the DR from the perks is protecting the player more than if it was converted to DT, so I guess there is a bit of unbalance there. So i decided to check when do both DR and DT perks stop being useful and found out that they stop being useful if someone has an armor with 21 DT for the DT Perks and armor 18 DT to DR perks, why?
(40 damage - 34% DT) - 21 DT = 5.4 damage will be rounded up to 8 damage because 20% of 40 will always pass through
(40 damage - 34% DT) - 18 DT = 8.4 damage which will let pass 0.4 more than with armor 21 DT
40 damage - 32 DT = 8 damage
So I just found out that in the beginning the DR perks protect more, but they lose efficiency when used with armors faster than if we convert them to DT, because we only need an armor with 18 DT while we need an armor with 21 DT for the perks converted to DT lose any effect. Also of note is that the Superior Defender bonus is only applied if the character is not moving, which I guess 50% of the time it is not being applied.
I leave it up to you guys to decide if it is unbalanced or not, I just wanted to actually know all the math behind it.
Also I am in favor of replacing the Cyborg perk with DT instead of DR because it is a level up perk and gives a big bonus of 10% DR, like I said before I think that quest reward perks should be the ones not getting changed, also only the Pitt Fighter and the Superior Defender (only works when not moving) are given for sure to the player by following the main quests of 2 DLC's. all the other ones are reward perks that can be missed all together by choosing a different way of dealing with the quests.
need more than a single data point to prove things with math like that :P
