CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: XP values and Level Cap

[thermador]

tjmidnight420: wow thanks, I did not know about Practice Makes Perfect. 

That is definitely a possible solution right there, pre-made.  I added it to the list in my previous post.

[Risewild]

I didn't know about that mod either I am also a fan of TES series so I am quite familiar with that type of leveling up it works well on those games so it might work well on TTW too, specially because since there are two games in one there are more chances to level skills that wouldn't have as much use in just one game.

Although now that I think about it TTW has something that TES games don't, perks. Using that mod it would be hard to level some skills which would make very tedious to get enough skill points to pick some perks that are (for example) science dependent, or medicine dependent etc.

The way I see it would be easier to level weapon skills than social or maybe also thieving skills making passing some of the skill checks in some dialogs very hard too.

I am finishing reading all of the description on the mod page, we can customize the rate at which a particular skill will increase, am I understanding that right? If that's the case than I guess we would have a way to deal with slow increasing skills.

The problems I see with it are that some users might not like how the level up is handled with that mod, or even some might get confused and not be able to configure it to be balanced and stuff.

I will have to try it for myself and see how it goes after the TTW testing is done .

[Proph]

While I agree that there are already plenty of solutions readily available on the Nexus, the whole situation really just boils down to whether or not TTW should aim for being balanced as a standalone mod or not.

As it currently stands, the mod is not balanced. This isn't a huge deal because as it's been said players can simply make their own tweaks to change the game to suit their playstyle. With that said though, it's up to the modders to define their objective of integrating the wastelands to both be playable within the same game. If they feel that balance is a significant enough issue that it merits attention and alterations to be made then the discussions here are relevant. If those working on the project feel that it is outside the mandate of the project, then it's all moot.

I'm also going to point out that neither Fallout 3 or New Vegas were particularly balanced out of the box. There was some challenge in early game, but both games quickly became ridiculously easy in the mid game (108xp per kill anyone?).

 

The main reason I advocate raising the level cap is just because it seems to me to be the "closest" to vanilla gameplay, and it still leaves the options open for everyone else to implement slower leveling, practice makes perfect, or whatever strikes their fancy.

 

One other thing that I don't think has been given enough consideration as a possible solution though is to implement a system similar to that of the original Fallout games, where you could raise your skills past 100% at the expense of additional skill points (e.g. require 2 points for each skill point from 101-125, 3 from 125-150, etc.). This would be one way to help balance the the vast quantities of exp (and thus skills) that are available in TTW, while still giving the player something to strive for. In conjunction with a higher level cap, players would probably feel a lot more incentive to go out and explore as much of both wastelands as they can.

[thermador]

Well, we could have a list of "Recommended mods" for TTW. 

On the download page, there could be a short list of mods that we know will work with TTW and we can safely recommend - as an example:

Mods recommended to improve character leveling (chose one option):

• 
  Project Nevada (adjust the experience rate down to xx%)


• 
  PN + Practice Makes Perfect (changes leveling system, raises level cap)


• 
  TTW Get shot in the head = level 1 mod


• 
  etc.

Mods recommended for graphics:

• 
  NMC's texture pack for Fallout 3


• 
  NMC's texture pack for NV


• 
  etc.

Mods recommended for user interface:

• 
  MTUI + aHUD + iHUD + uHUD


• 
  Darnified UI


• 
  etc.

Mods recommended for ???? :

• 
  etc. etc. etc.

 

[TJ]

@Proph: The game definately needs levelled, that wasn't what I meant. Just once I'd like to come across a level 50 deathclaw. PMP Also allows you to level each skill up to lvl 200.

@Risewild: Yes you can customize the rate at which each skill gains independantly. May not be for everyone but definately makes for an interesting playthrough. Added to my "must use mods" as soon as I tried it out.

[Krux]

yea idk tj, the bit of a lot of these mods already existing is true. i didn't post not knowing that either.. (except for pmp)

but specificaly about the xp gain, even tho you can *fix* ttw by downloading 1 of several of those kinds of mods for yourself doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. my best way to put this would be describing an unfinished mod. vanilla lvl style doesn't work with ttw, that's 1 of the bigger reasons this thread exists.

example: it's like downloading a single mod in parts. you want a flashlight but you have to download the flashlight's effect, physical flashlight, and toggle function all separately. kinda silly.

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that said, knowing about pmp. how do the dev's (and the rest of you guys) feel about incorporating MCM and PMP into ttw, with permission and given credit, obviously. being that could be an option and like someone posted earlier (i can't find it now) about additional work on the dev's that's "not needed", this could solve the xp/skills/lvl issue to everyone's desire, and save work on the devs. all at the small cost of asking for permission and giving credit.

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EDIT: i just wna add that i think this is a small issue with a simple solution but some ppl here are trying too hard to incorporate their own personal preference instead of a way to make it please everyone.

not EVERYONE is doing this, plz dnt quote this against me...just bare in mind an ideal solution instead of a personal preference, i may have made that mistake earlier with suggesting %50 so strongly but this thread so far has shown some ppl strangely want some astronomically different things.

[TJ]

It could technically be argued that balance was an issue with both vanilla games as well. FO3/NV both pretty much peaked at level 20-25. Anything higher and it wasn't a challenge unless you were in one of the DLC areas. I can remember playing vanilla FNV on 360 when it first came out and starting a character, snagging some of the better weapons hidden near the beginning of the game, and heading north from Goodsprings toward Vegas at level 3 or 4 just because it was a challenge. I'd wager to bet at this point most of the people on this forum could attempt that and make it to Freeside with little to no issues. TTW needs to be balanced for the sake of being greater than the sum of all it's parts (FO3 and NV respectively,) but to say TTW is incomplete because it's only part of a mod is a bit unfair when you think about the fact that anything past level 20 vanilla FO3 with no DLC throws the balance off. NV was never balanced properly to begin with and it's definately more incomplete than what we've got here.

 

That said, I'm fairly certain we'll all be happy with what we get in the end. Also, remember that when this is finished it wont be Fallout 3 or New Vegas. It'll be TTW: A new game to mod for (In a sense.)

[Krux]

[quote=tjmidnight420]

It could technically be argued that balance was an issue with both vanilla games as well.[/quote]

i just wna stop right there before finishing ur post. i had posted earlier that the xp bit would "even be a fix for the vanilla game" WITH a 2nd game to compensate for the time. as the game is slow-paced and it should be played this way anyways, all the more reason to add it.

i'll edit this post later.

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ok, i agree with pretty much all of that. and i already see TTW as it's own game, yes. but i feel like what ur saying is all the more reason to slow down xp gain at least by half, if not more. ofc, as said over and over in this thread, no 1 person is happy with any 1 proposed solution so the % would have to be configurable. point being, vanilla xp gain is NO GOOD for ttw. again..it's why this thread exists, at least a big part of it.

[TJ]

I can agree with that. What about lowering the default XP gain to 60-75% of where it is now for TTW. When Jax updates the leveled lists forward thinking would be to scale them past the vanilla level cutoff of 50. When you're at level 50 (which IMO should remain the vanilla cap for TTW) you'll be seeing level 50, 51, or 52 leveled creatures/ NPC depending on the cap for that particular list. Jax could still scale the lists up to for example 80 or 100, but vanilla wouldn't touch anything past the cutoff. I believe the highest mulitplier on a list that I've seen is something like 1.25 or 1.50 of the player level, but he could tweak that as he saw fit as well. Then a recommended mod for TTW could be a level cap 80 or 100 mod. The game would then pull from the higher levels in the lists when the player hit a level over 100.

Example:

TTW Max Player level | list multiplier = highest level pulled from list.

50 | 50 * 1.25 = 62.5 (Rounded down)

So properly balanced without an uncapper at the maximum level we would be seeing leveled creatures/NPCs at level 62.

Example from the same list with a level 100 mod:

100| (100 * 1.25) = 125

Note that I'm not certain the game would allow him to set creature levels in the lists higher than the max level in game, but I'm thinking it should. Combine this with slower xp leveling and it takes longer to get to whatever max your game is set to so it doesn't get too vicious too quickly. Seperate esps could be whipped up that just change the rate of xp gains that you could just add to a page in the mod release section and it should pretty well cater to just about everybody. I would think 25, 50, and then one for back to 100% xp gain would suffice, but you could split into thirds as well.

[Krux]

i agree with you that lvl cap of the player shouldn't exceed vanilla 50. i've only argued slower lvl'ing. and if he could do that, that sounds like a fair formula to me..

as for xp % modifier, i still think it would be nice to see that built-in with configurable option. like an MCM thing maybe, but that could wait til future ttw development. basic deployment that you mentioned is EXACTLY what im talking about and i have no complaints about the details.

only 2 things now are: A) does everyone else agree with this? and B) if this is put to rest with deployment exactly as me and you agree on, the only other issue is this WSG/fnv travel bit.. (i'll post my ideal solution and reasoning later on, although i believe i already mentioned it..nonetheless)