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CROSS-CONTENT DISCUSSION: XP values and Level Cap

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Risewild
Posts: 3219
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:14 am

I agree with thermador here,

Post by Risewild » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:12 am

I agree with thermador here, if we stop leveling at 50 and just decrease the xp the character gets then the game might become boring, because it's leveling that makes the player feel rewarded for the time put into the game, and with leveling comes better loot from most enemies and stuff. I can understand why in NV the cap reached 50 with all the DLCs and stop, but in a game of the length of TTW level 50 is low, I am almost level 40 and didn't even got out of the CW, never been to NV yet and still need to start the Broken Steel main mission, what if the first time I go to NV and I already reached the level cap? then the game might be quite boring if I was a normal player and not a tester because I would be playing the entire Fallout New Vegas and it's DLCs without ever leveling up again. Also even with the removal of many skill books from the Capital Wasteland and replacing them with magazines there are still more books than FNV which would make reaching 100 in skills easier, but if we increase the 100 skill cap to even just 150 would make maxing it out much more like NV intended it. And now I go on perks, it's obvious that with lonesome road (I think, can't remember) the level cap increased to 50 and there was three maximum level perks (Ain't Like That Now, Just Lucky I'm Alive and Thought You Died) that we are only supposed to pick one of those so they could be changed to be only available if none of the others were already picked or something, unless it would be ok with letting the player pick two or all of them, but I think that would be going against of what those perks represent.


Also if the level cap would be increased we would need more perks to choose from (although I am not really sure, maybe with both games we would have enough perks, never counted them all angel) but what comes into mind is something like "More Perks".


Just my two cents on the matter cool.


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Darkersun
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:29 am

If skill is set to go over

Post by Darkersun » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:12 am

If skill is set to go over 100 and give benefits & Level to go over 50, that would be good for TTW.


It would give Perks like Thief and Daddys Boy etc. more meaning and it would make more sense to invest in them.


I think the problem is that enemy's would not scale after lvl 50 and encounters would be very easy.


This would be a lot of rebalance work I think but it would be awesome.


Reducing Xp sounds like the easy way out of this.


 


Maybe reducing XP, uncapping skill (because of skillbooks & co) and one perk per level could help.


Regards,

Darkersun


- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

tizerist
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:24 am

I would say that this is

Post by tizerist » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:02 pm

I would say that this is something for another mod. If Project Nevada does it, as does others, then that problem is already solved.



Computerrock1
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:00 pm

I disagree with lowering the

Post by Computerrock1 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:41 pm

I disagree with lowering the rate at which we gain xp. You see the problem with that is that as we go through and do quests and what not, we find more and more powerfull weapons, now I don't know about you but I think being level 12 with the firelance or Tesla-Beaton Prototype. With those weapons the npc's don't stand a chance, why? Because we aren't supposed to have that kind of weaponry at such a low level. If we progress the with lower xp there will be no challenge because we are meant to level up with xp and better weaponry.



Delphi
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:25 am

I really think there needs to

Post by Delphi » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:03 am

I really think there needs to be some kind of solution to this problem, but I don´t think lowering XP levels is the final answer for it. There is one overarching question: How do you want to connect the 2 Wastelands?


Here are 3 scenarios I could think of:


The logical (timeline) approach: The player always starts with the Fallout 3 Storyline and it there is only a one-time chance to leave DC and travel to New Vegas, which is blended over with a "4 years later" Message. Preferably this should only be possible after you finished the main story of FO3 and Broken Steel. This would somehow keep a logical timeline (as much as it is possible, since the Lone wanderer and the courier couldn´t be the same person afaik). When you arrive in New Vegas the player should get shot in the head, which leads to losing his stats. This means the players becomes level 1 again, all stats are reset and all level up perks are removed. What the player should keep are special perks (like Survival Guru, Ant Sight) a certain amount of equipment and money and some kind of bonus perk, which could be called "DC Wasteland legacy" with some bonuses (depending on how you solved FO3), that don´t make FO:NW trivial to play. Also, there would be no possibility to go back to the DC wasteland. Of course this would make some things impossible, like taking DC companions over to new Vegas and vice versa. The whole reason for doing this, is to not trivialize FO:NW, because not having all stats at 100 from the get go and leveling up is an important part of what makes the game enjoyable. This would be my preferred way of doing it, because I value having fun while playing the second story higher, than being able to do wacky stuff like using Jericho in New Vegas. This solution would keep each playthrough as near to the original experience as possible.


The universal approach: The player can either choose in which storyline he wants to start, or there is a default storyline, which allows to travel between the wastelands relatively early (like it is done at the moment). On the plus side almost everything can be done as the player wants it to be done. The problem here is, that the current leveling mechanic simply isn´t fit to handle 2 separate stories played after each other, because there are severe scaling issues, which lead to a trivial gameplay for the second story as a high level character. As you already noted there needs to be some kind of solution which allows a better scaling without making the first story too hard or still trivializing the second story. Reducing XP might be one part of a solution, but it definitely is not the final answer to the problem. But if player freedom is your vision for this mod, then this is the way to go.


The directed approach: In this approach the player should be able to choose his starting storyline. The first story the player chooses should have a level cap, so that you have a level value to balance the second story around. When the first story is finished, the player can start the second story, and everything in the second story needs to scale up to be a challenge for the high level player. In this case you might allow travel between the 2 wastelands after the first one is finished. Essentially the max level of the first story is the equivalent of a level 1 character in the second story. I guess this would be a lot of work, since there are so many things that you need to scale (skill checks, Enemies, loot, prices, perks, SPECIAL stats, skill stats and so on). Practical I think his approach wouldn´t be feasible, since it´s just too much work.


These are the 3 general ways I could see your mod implemented, but of course there could be some in between solutions or even some others I didn´t think of. Currently I think you are going for number 2, and I guess it´s a tough call to change it. I´ll wrap my head around for some sort of solution, but I think the whole leveling system might need a rework if you want this to work out with free traveling.



Gribbleshnibit8
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:06 am

I kind of like the idea of

Post by Gribbleshnibit8 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:18 pm

I kind of like the idea of the logical timeline variant. I personally liked Fo3 MUCH more than FNV, something about the destroyed ruins of the nation's capital just appeal to me. It's got a feeling of more gravity and import.


Anyway, I'd prefer at minimum a choice to play either storyline from the beginning. So, New Game: "Would you like to start a game in the DC Wasteland or the Mojave Wasteland" or something similar. Make your choice and go about that story as if that were the game you were playing. I also agree with at minimum finishing the primary story of one Wasteland before going to the other. This should not be a one time chance though, however, it should be pointed out to the player that traveling to the other Wasteland would leave them stuck there until that story was finished (main storyline). Once that story is finished, it is then opened up for travel between the two as desired. An option would be to give the player the option to reset their level upon the travel to the other Wasteland, pointing out the reasons for doing so, but ultimately leaving that decision up to the player. 


As far as leveling speed and such, I say leave it to external mods. Project Nevada has a very good system built in, and it has been pointed out that there are quite a few other mods that do it too. I know personally I'll be playing with PN, and I already play with a 33% reduction in XP because I think FNV levels too fast anyway. With TTW I'll probably drop it to 50%. I believe that FWE had a 50% level rate, and that actually felt pretty good for the game.



The 3rd Type
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:38 pm

I don't like the idea of

Post by The 3rd Type » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:24 am

I don't like the idea of limiting someone to one wasteland based on story completion. At all.



JaxFirehart
Posts: 3003
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 am

In the near future we will

Post by JaxFirehart » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:37 am

In the near future we will implement a couple of restrictions on travel from DC to NV.


First, traveling to NV requires completion of the Wasteland Survival Guide so that it's existence in NV is not strange. People have suggested auto-completing the quest if you travel to NV before finishing it, as though someone else had done it in your place. I am against this because that quest is a huge part of FO3. I am also against requiring it to travel to NV; with auto-completion off the table, though, requiring WSG to go to NV is the current best option. I am open to suggestions on that.


Second, there are points in FO3 where leaving for years just isn't feasible. As soon as you rescue Dad from Tranquility Lane, travel to NV will be blocked until completion of the campaign, possibly broken steel. The reason behind this is lore driven: the enclave and bos were, one can assume, basically in stalemate before Project Purity, and James is sleeping his life away in Tranquility Lane. Without your interference, I think it is safe to assume that this pattern would hold for at least a few years, so travel between wastelands is uninhibited. Once you wake up James, big things are afoot. After waking James, whether you are in DC or not, he WILL go to Project Purity, he WILL get it up and running, and the Enclave WILL take it over, killing James in the process. With you gone, though, there is nothing to stop the Enclave from acquiring a GECK, learning how to work Project Purity and distributing FEV throughout the wastes. Because of these circumstances, the player cannot be allowed to leave after waking up James and before taking back Project Purity. I'm pretty firm on this.


Third, starting in DC is mandatory. Thermador has already created an excellent add-on that allows you to start in FNV, but starting in NV will never be supported natively. The reason for this is for simplicity. If we know, generally, which path a player will take, it is easier to balance. If we allow starting in either wasteland, then the amount of work required to ensure a smooth transition grows exponentially. If we had funding and a much larger team that workload would be manageable, at the moment we lack both.



Darkersun
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:29 am

How about balancing the game

Post by Darkersun » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:53 am

How about balancing the game for a DC to NV walkthrough flow.


The shot in the head could remove some of the highlevel abilitys you have acquiered like:


- PA Training


- some XP and levels ?


For the Travel it would be good to implement some restrictions like traveling to HH. Like weight limit that can be bigger with some skillchecks.


One nice feature I would like is to have some of the equipment stolen (I think somebody already did this).


- Maybe a check for PA or Tesla weapon and a Quest around it. It would be nice to fight someone in your equipment. Just my opinion.


Regards,

Darkersun


- semi FNV Modder
- Wasteland lover

- System Spec: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T / MSI GTX 970 /12GB DDR3 RAM

Delphi
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:25 am

Hello Jax,

Post by Delphi » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:16 am

Hello Jax,



after reading your post, I think your first point might be a bit problematic. Even though almost everybody surely will complete the WSG Quest in their playthrough sooner or later, we should not forget, that there is an alternative solution to this quest, which leads to moira not writing the WSG at all. Also, there is still the possibility of moira being killed before she writes the guide. I know that these 2 events are pretty unlikely, but they still might happen, which unfortunately makes trying to explain the existence of the F:NV WSG via this quest rather pointless.



Your second point is pretty good. Perhaps there should be some kind of message that informs the player of him being unable to travel before entering tranquility lane.



Regarding your third point I also think starting in DC is the most logical thing to do.



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