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Legate Armor Mateiral

General discussion of Tale of Two Wastelands
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Risewild
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Well I would say it uses

Post by Risewild » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:53 am

Well I would say it uses Bronze, Roman Officers usually used the so called Muscle plates which were made of bronze or steel, although not much in battle, used more in like ceremonies although there is evidence that sometimes they would use it in battle too. The difference between the roman muscle plate and the one from Legate's armor is that the roman armor didn't have any shoulder pads and would weight around 25 to 30 pounds, also the leg armor (greave) would be different than the one from Legate's Armor, and the Romans didn't really used them much, there are even evidences that some who used them would use only one in either their right or left leg, not in both. Greaves were usually made by mass just by pressing a sheet of metal and then add leather or cloth, so nothing really fancy like the ones from the Legate's Armor. Roman helmets were also not equipped with masks either. Legate's Armor is really not historical accurate at all so I can't really say if it is bronze or not just like the real roman ones, but I guess my bet is that it could be bronze yes. Although that raises the question, does the legion knows how to make bronze? where did they got the tin and copper to make such alloy? mines? recycling? how did they learn how to produce bronze? pre-war books? any other pre-war knowledge recordings? Trial and error? I wish we knew more about the Legion...


About realism, how come this small "shield" in the Esther GRA unique Fatman can give a whooping 10 DT and 25 Radiation Resistance?



Like I said before IFM!


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Puppettron
Gary
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also, exactly how much use

Post by Puppettron » Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:11 am

also, exactly how much use were you going to get out of that armor?  it's probably just stat-copied from another piece simply because you only get it at the very end of the game and there's a grand total of one fight you can get into after that, and you really have force it


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Decker
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Risewild wrote:

Post by Decker » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:48 pm

[quote=Risewild]


 


Well I would say it uses Bronze, Roman Officers usually used the so called Muscle plates which were made of bronze or steel, although not much in battle, used more in like ceremonies although there is evidence that sometimes they would use it in battle too. The difference between the roman muscle plate and the one from Legate's armor is that the roman armor didn't have any shoulder pads and would weight around 25 to 30 pounds, also the leg armor (greave) would be different than the one from Legate's Armor, and the Romans didn't really used them much, there are even evidences that some who used them would use only one in either their right or left leg, not in both. Greaves were usually made by mass just by pressing a sheet of metal and then add leather or cloth, so nothing really fancy like the ones from the Legate's Armor. Roman helmets were also not equipped with masks either. Legate's Armor is really not historical accurate at all so I can't really say if it is bronze or not just like the real roman ones, but I guess my bet is that it could be bronze yes. Although that raises the question, does the legion knows how to make bronze? where did they got the tin and copper to make such alloy? mines? recycling? how did they learn how to produce bronze? pre-war books? any other pre-war knowledge recordings? Trial and error? I wish we knew more about the Legion...


About realism, how come this small "shield" in the Esther GRA unique Fatman can give a whooping 10 DT and 25 Radiation Resistance?


Like I said before IFM!


[/quote]


Yeah, Esther's protection stats are clearly OP. I'd find much more reasonable DT+3 or so and at most +10 rad resistance, because the shield and the weapon amount at best to about as much protection as a helmet could provide, and that is in an ideal situation, only while facing the attacker.. There's nothing in the FNV lore to actually suggest that Esther would have any force field generators or magic enchantments on it. smiley


Muscle Cuirass, as the historical armor piece is usually called, was typically made out of either hardened leather or bronze (originally invented in archaic Greece). Decorated and expensive bronze muscle cuirasses were typically worn only by the wealthy and influential roman military officers and such, while leather muscle cuirass was more affordable for lower ranks. This is more of an example of historical 'dress armor' intended to mainly look heroic in a parade or social occasion instead of actually protecting the wearer in any serious battle.. Now, the main difference between such and Legate Lanius' armor is that Lanius actually fights himself, a lot, and needs practical combat protection from his armor - I have to agree with the falloutwikia entry on that the practical DT aspect of the armor is most likely due to steel alloy plates; However, the armor is colored like bronze which is why I suspect it has been surfaced with a thin surface layer of bronze or gold (which the Legion has and can work), and like most FNV metal armors, visually it appears to be thick because it is built over a leather underlayer (for padding and anti-spalling).


Lanius is big and strong, but actually he is not a mutant - Propably the strongest human being in the Mojave area, though. Even so, there is no way without violating the laws of physics that even the worlds strongest man could fight for any length of time in a bullet resistant thick bronze armor weighing several hundred pounds and wield an 80Lbs blade as a practical melee weapon.


As for availability: Bronze is definitely possible to acquire in FNV post-apoc setting; In game items like Conductor (copper wiring) and like Tin Plates or Tin Cans (for their tin content). Gather enough of these (propably needs at least couple times more weight in salvage than the amount of bronze produced), then smelt the stuff in a blast furnace into bronze alloy of some sort and use a forge and anvil of some sort to hammer the stuff into shape; This would simply require lots of energy (burning lots of precious limited charcoal resources) and effort though - No way the Caesar's Legion would waste their resources on bronze equipment when they can more easily get carbon steel alloys for their weapons and armor, only exceptions propably would be bronze for some decorative uses, like surface plating officers armors and stuff like that. Alternatively, Lanius armor might actually have a gold-plated surface layer - This costs a lot more, but the Legion seems to have lots of gold in coins at least..


 



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EnderDragonFire
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@Risewild Bronze could be

Post by EnderDragonFire » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:51 am

@Risewild Bronze could be made form tin cans and copper wire, and is relatively simply to understand, compared to more advanced alloys. 


@Decker I would argue that it is not reasonable that leather can provide bullet resistance either, but it does in Fallout. We just have to accept that armors in fallout are stronger than they should be. And as for the argument that Lanuis would need (or want) functional armor, I disagree; the legion is not about practicality, or they would use modern medicine an other technology. And as for him wearing the armor? Well, the guy can swing a sharpened car bumper fast enough to cut through power armor, strength is not an issue for him. (maybe he IS a mutant of some sort?)


"Who are you, who do not know your history?"



MarchUntoTorment
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I've always just taken the

Post by MarchUntoTorment » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:42 am

I've always just taken the approach that Lanius is in the 99.999th percentile in terms of human strength - one of the strongest humans to have ever lived, functionally. Much like Ulysses, who is also in that top band in terms of intellect and so forth.



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Decker
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EnderDragonFire wrote:

Post by Decker » Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:54 pm

[quote=EnderDragonFire]


 


@Decker I would argue that it is not reasonable that leather can provide bullet resistance either, but it does in Fallout. We just have to accept that armors in fallout are stronger than they should be. And as for the argument that Lanuis would need (or want) functional armor, I disagree; the legion is not about practicality, or they would use modern medicine an other technology. And as for him wearing the armor? Well, the guy can swing a sharpened car bumper fast enough to cut through power armor, strength is not an issue for him. (maybe he IS a mutant of some sort?)


[/quote]


FNV lore clearly states that Lanius is an exceptional human, not mutated in any significant way. As for why Lanius would wear practical armor is simply because he is not stupid; He is a highly talented, skilled and experienced melee fighter in an era full of firearms, well versed in battle tactics, sneak attacks and so forth. As the champion of the hidebark tribe, Lanius single-handedly ambushed and killed entire legion scouting/raiding parties with primitive weapons, on several occasions.


Legion does make use of some modern technology, but in a choosy and anachronistic fashion to support their cultural image. Modern small arms, grenades, armor made from salvaged metal plating, futuristic melee weapons.. Lowly basic legion recruits get the cheapest available gear; but primes, veterans and praetorians get some better stuff (some of their weapons are amongst the best you can find in the game). Ultimately Caesar decides what is and isn't acceptable for the legion military equipment doctrine, and as a former Followers of the Apocalypse member he has an understanding about what level of practicality with tech is necessary for making the legion a strong post-apocalyptic military force as opposed to simply always being easy target practice for NCR troopers or random wastelanders. As for why the legion uses primarily healing powder (or bitter drinks) instead of stimpaks is propably simply an availability issue; As former tribals, almost any legionary knows how to make healing powder or other primitive natural remedies.


Leather bullet resistance; Not that great, yeah, but it does provide some minor resistance. This becomes more significant against softpoint or pre-fragmented pistol bullets. IRL pre-fragmented pistol rounds often fail to penetrate an ordinary leather jacket (soft and thin leather), but can still punch through light clothing and bare skin to kill a human being with the extra wide wound channel effect.. I think that in postapoc armor leather material is best used as an underlayer/arming harness for rigid plates (like with the Metal Armors) - It offers very useful padding and if spalling occurs from the metal plates being hit with fast moving projectiles, leather is propably enough to stop those small fragments from entering through skin into the wearer.. All this being said, I consider the DT:6 for FNV Leather Armor a bit OP statistic; DT:2 or DT:3 would be far more believable values IMHO for the basic leather armor, despite having those metal pauldrons (how large fraction of bullets actually ever hit those armor pieces in a standup fight situation?). Of course, Kevlar (and other ballistic fibers or even silk) would make far superior performance underlayer material, but in the postapoc setting it is much more expensive and rarer than leather which is relatively cheap and plentiful - This is propably the main reason why most post-apoc armors have leather in them.


Poor wastelanders only choice is leather, and a bit wealthier wasteland warrior adds metal plates in some form; the wealthiest and most fortunate wasteland combatants can afford to acquire and maintain proper pre-war armors, while only the very sharpest tip of the elite military organizations (BOS Paladins and the like) tromp around in power armor.


 



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EnderDragonFire
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I get what you are saying

Post by EnderDragonFire » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:15 pm

I get what you are saying about DT. That is why I take everything in context. I don;t ask myself "is 15 DT reasonable for bronze armor?" I ask myself "is 15 DT reasonable for bronze armor in a world where leather has between 6 and 15 (gecko backed reinforced) and scrap metal has 10?" Basically, compared to other armors in the game, is 15 DT reflect the protection gap between leather, bronze, and steel?And I think that the answer is yes. 


As for why Lanius would wear bronze, it is because it reflects the basic ideals of the legion. Wearing armor that is known to be outdated as a sign of your strength and non-reliance on advanced technology basically enbodies everything that they stand for.


As to weather he is a mutant, we really do not know. As far as I can tell, nobody has ever done genetic analysis on him. How do we know that he does not have some normal mutation, like gigantism? Caesar claims to reject all mutants, but if that was true he would be like the enclave, and only accept vault dwellers, as everyone born in the wastes is mutated in some way.


 


"Who are you, who do not know your history?"



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Decker
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EnderDragonFire wrote:

Post by Decker » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:36 pm

[quote=EnderDragonFire]


 


I get what you are saying about DT. That is why I take everything in context. I don;t ask myself "is 15 DT reasonable for bronze armor?" I ask myself "is 15 DT reasonable for bronze armor in a world where leather has between 6 and 15 (gecko backed reinforced) and scrap metal has 10?" Basically, compared to other armors in the game, is 15 DT reflect the protection gap between leather, bronze, and steel?And I think that the answer is yes. 


As for why Lanius would wear bronze, it is because it reflects the basic ideals of the legion. Wearing armor that is known to be outdated as a sign of your strength and non-reliance on advanced technology basically enbodies everything that they stand for.


As to weather he is a mutant, we really do not know. As far as I can tell, nobody has ever done genetic analysis on him. How do we know that he does not have some normal mutation, like gigantism? Caesar claims to reject all mutants, but if that was true he would be like the enclave, and only accept vault dwellers, as everyone born in the wastes is mutated in some way.


[/quote]


In FNV context, the term 'mutant' usually refers to something obviously recognizable like Supermutants, Centaurs, Ghouls or Trogs. Everyone (except isolated vault-dwellers) is contaminated with small amounts of the original raw FEV (and has developed a limited immunity to such small amounts of FEV), which got released into the planets whole ecosphere during the great war. For a normal human in FNV setting to reach a large size and SPECIAL stat of Strength:9 (Lanius) does not require any assistance from FEV, it is just very rare random genetic occurrence combined with the right nurture/training/lifestyle.


In general, DT seems to be quite an abstract statistic, this one number needs to take into account both the fraction of torso, limbs or head actually covered by armor as well as the armors toughness.. Frex, when one puts on a bullet resistant vest, the whole abstract DT value rises up for both the torso and all limbs, although the limbs are not even covered at all by that armor.. IMHO gecko backing a leather armor propably should not add a whopping +5DT for only 3Lbs of added gecko leather, this is OP as heck. By this rationale, if one made a whole 15 Lbs leather armor outfit out of only hardened gecko-leather, it would have something like DT:25 which is obviously utterly ridiculous. Something tells me that these DT values for leather armor are overtly inflated for some as of yet unknown gameplay reason that has absolutely nothing to do with plausibility or realism.


Anyhow, take a close look at this picture on the falloutwikia site; http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130404182214/fallout/images/b/bb/Lanius.png


The picture clearly shows gray steel in places like the helmet and the pauldrons (kneeguards are all steel), it seems as if bronze (or bronze-plated or gold-plated) pieces have actually been attached over steel armor plates, and some of the steel armor underneath can still be seen in places, like around the edges of the pauldrons. I think this is quite clear visual evidence that Lanius' armor is a layered design using several different metals - It could be bronze or brass on top for appearance, and steel underneath for the real protection.


In reality modern steel plate offers way more resistance to bullets than bronze, both per thickness and per unit of weight over surface area. To stop any given bullet, IIRC one would propably need something like at least six times the weight of modern armorplate steel in bronze, also the bronze would deform quite easily and could not take several bullet hits, like the steel armor can - Another problem with all-bronze armor would be more pronounced spalling effects from bullet hits, I mean that even stopped high velocity bullets could eventually kill the wearer as the armor deforms by spitting pieces and slivers of bronze inside. Yet another problem with modern bronze armor IRL is that armor-piercing hardcore projectiles would go through it like a hot knife through butter. By using a steel+bronze sandwiched armor design, it is possible to get both the outward appearance of bronze and the practical protection of the steel without going totally outlandishly overboard with armor weight. I mean that the bronze contributes a little bit to the DT value there, but it seems quite certain that the largest fraction of Legate Armor's DT comes from steel.


 



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LT Albrecht
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MarchUntoTorment wrote:

Post by LT Albrecht » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:19 am

[quote=MarchUntoTorment]


450lbs for T-45d (bulky, steel construction, ceramic ultracapacitor power source is lighter than nuclear)


...


...


Thoughts, everyone?


[/quote]


Ceramic ultracapacitors aren't an (in-universe) thing. the PPA guy made them up to help sort exactly how his mod works. The T-45D is powered by a giant block of Small Energy cells in the backpack, in what a lot of people (for some reason) assume are scuba tanks.


trollolololololol





 



MarchUntoTorment
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Huh, there we go. Now I know.

Post by MarchUntoTorment » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:58 am

Huh, there we go. Now I know. I always assumed he pulled them from lore.


Thanks, Albrecht!



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