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Question: Short Explanation of FO3 Equipment Rebalancing

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Vaul
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:03 am
Location: TX, USA

As someone new to TTW, I've

Post by Vaul » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:45 pm

As someone new to TTW, I've had all the same questions, and many many more. The "readme" content in the alpha and FAQ pages dont answer much about the content that was changed. I've read tons of posts referring to how TTW was supposed to stay as vanilla as possible, yet every time I pick something up in game it's different, or missing (skill books). I've been able to glean some of why things were changed by searching the forums, but not a lot.


TJ, you ask why someone should bother? I would think so you dont have to keep answering this kind of question on the forums :) You seem to assume that virtually nobody reads or looks for that info, and maybe I'm an oddball, but I always search for such answers. Otherwise I wont know whether a mod will completely hose my game or change things I don't want. Having more of it addressed either in the FAQ or a readme could save tons of time searching through posts that have nothing to do with what I'm actually searching for.


I can certainly appreciate that there are so many changes that had to be made that they wouldn't all be documented to the nth degree, but skill, perk, weapon & armor differences have all been things I've had head-scratch moments about. Loving the mod so far though :)


Cheers,

Vaul



MichaelDawn
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:29 pm

Vaul wrote:

Post by MichaelDawn » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:10 pm

[quote=Vaul]


 


As someone new to TTW, I've had all the same questions, and many many more. The "readme" content in the alpha and FAQ pages dont answer much about the content that was changed. I've read tons of posts referring to how TTW was supposed to stay as vanilla as possible, yet every time I pick something up in game it's different, or missing (skill books). I've been able to glean some of why things were changed by searching the forums, but not a lot.


TJ, you ask why someone should bother? I would think so you dont have to keep answering this kind of question on the forums :) You seem to assume that virtually nobody reads or looks for that info, and maybe I'm an oddball, but I always search for such answers. Otherwise I wont know whether a mod will completely hose my game or change things I don't want. Having more of it addressed either in the FAQ or a readme could save tons of time searching through posts that have nothing to do with what I'm actually searching for.


I can certainly appreciate that there are so many changes that had to be made that they wouldn't all be documented to the nth degree, but skill, perk, weapon & armor differences have all been things I've had head-scratch moments about. Loving the mod so far though :)


Cheers,

Vaul


[/quote]


I am following through on my promise, and so far the scaling they did is pretty consistent. A few posts elsewhere by RoyBatty state this, but don't go into detail.


Some of the unique FO3 weapons (like the samurai sword) are special cases, but for the most part, everything was "scaled" to match NV equivalents. Weapons from both games are replaced with the NV version, and everything that wasn't in NV was compared to the closest thing in NV and scaled accordingly. If something was weaker in FO3, it's still weaker (and vice versa). Armors were given DT equivalent to the closest related armor from NV, with unique armors being scaled accordingly. Overall, there weren't as many "special" cases as I thought there would be, but I will write em up later so people know what to expect.



JaxFirehart
Posts: 3003
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:33 am

Just for the record, when we

Post by JaxFirehart » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:33 pm

Just for the record, when we say "Stay true to vanilla" we mean in terms of story and "feel".


That's pretty subjective, admittedly.


Everything we added or changed in FO3 was done because we felt like it would be weird to have that content in FNV and not in FO3. FNV weapons were added, but anything that has reason to be local to NV was kept in NV, a good example is the Ranger Sequoia, finding one in FO3 would have been weird. We normalized the weapons because there is no good reason that weapons like the 9mm pistol wouldn't exist, logically, in the DC wasteland. We did the same with armors, and some of those were very subjective, the APA mk1 (non-unique remnants armor) is a good example. Adding Mk1 and Mk2 talon company armor is another subjective one. We used the APA mk1 to close the level gap on the enclave, so that at low levels they didn't have APA mk2 (classic FO3 Enclave Power Armor) because that would just be horrible on the player. APA1 isn't much better but it is better. Same with Talon Co Combat Armor MK1 and MK2, in FO3 the talon co was a reliable source of combat armor which offers the highest non-PowerArmor protection; we wanted to keep that trend. As the player levels up in NV plain combat armor is surpassed by other armors, but MK1 and MK2 remain in the upper levels.


We overhauled the leveled lists on almost every enemy encounter in FO3, partly to make it work like FNV (and use a lot of FNVs lists) but also to make sure that weapons are well distributed.


We added new recipes so that a survival player could still be viable in DC, to enable that we needed to add new harvestables and place them all over the world.


The most controversial change we made was the use of the 9mm pistol in V101 instead of 10mm. I hate it. Practically everyone on the team hates it. Most people that play hate it. But I also feel it's the best solution. Otherwise the player walks out of V101 with a mid tier weapon and tons of ammo that is already sold by merchants at level 1. They skip the entire skill 0 tier of pistols instantly. If the player uses Energy Weapons, they start with a laser pistol, and so using the 10mm favors Guns over E. Weapons, not good. It's worth mentioning (even though nobody seems to have noticed this) that the V101 Security Armor is weaker than any other vault security armor, again, so that the player doesn't leave the vault with excellent armor. I am to this day open to just about any solution that makes sense logically, within the framework of the game, and doesn't give the player an imbalanced boost from the beginning. Some things we've discarded are: low condition (with the amount of 10mm pistols and NV's ability to repair to 100 no matter your skill, you would still leave with a max condition 10mm pistol, just less of them); low ammo (10mm ammo is buyable from the start and you would still leave with enough ammo to get some caps rolling and start buying that 10mm).


And another controversial change: the removal of .32 ammo. Many members of the team campaigned to have 2 hunting rifles, one chambered in 32 and one in 308. In this case I made an executive decision and said no. I didn't like the aesthetic of having two visually identical weapons with different stats and ammo types. Some members of the team said we could change the .32 Hunting Rifle to make it look different. I killed that as well, because by changing it's appearance, we are making it a different weapon, and then people would bitch about the fact that it doesn't look like FO3. So we overwrote the FO3 Hunting Rifle with the FNV Hunting Rifle, that left ONLY the .32 Revolver that used .32 ammo. Now you'll notice that there are other ammo types that are only used by 1 weapon, but those are specialized/powerful equipment, not a simple revolver. We kicked around different chambering values: .308, .357, .38 special, 9mm, and .22LR. Of those, .308 was ridiculous for a revolver, especially for a low level one. A 357 revolver already existed. 38 special is just a type of 357 in NV, so same deal there. 9mm was a viable option, but we felt that using 22LR would make it easier to have a rifle and a pistol chambered in the same caliber, something that JR Sawyer admitted to doing on purpose, harking back to old cowboy practice of doing just that. So we settled on a .22 Revolver and killing .32 ammo.


I believe that's the extent of the content changes we made and I still feel they were all justified. If you have other changes you've encountered, throw them in here and I can usually remember why we made them and we felt they were justified.



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Risewild
Posts: 3219
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:14 am

I just want to point out that

Post by Risewild » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:28 pm

I just want to point out that the reason the team never made anything like an extensive in-depth changes document is that TTW is three years old, it was started by a team of two people, got a few people joining and leaving throughout the years, the team works on it in the spare time, we all have busy lives and work/studying/family life to deal with, and the team is always small (I think now it is the most people we ever had on the team) and usually we never have all of the team members active at the same time, TTW was rebuilt from scratch at least once before (can't remember if it was two times or just one), sometimes in a month the team only has time to fix a few bugs, in others the team add and change so many things it makes the head spinning.


I would have loved to write a changes document, but to be honest I have been part of the team for a while but sometimes I still find stuff I had no idea it was already made cheeky it is really hard to keep up to the changes because it just keep coming, people use their time to make TTW and their own personal projects so no one ever has time to write an in-depth doc.


It is worth noticing that once we had our own team member that was going to deal with the news and other more administrative and clerical work... I think we scared the poor girl with so much work she would have to keep up that she just vanished without a word after a couple of weeks... sad


So in sum, it is not because we want to keep things hidden, or because we are lazy, we just do not have enough time or people to be able to keep up with the changes., I even a while ago made a TTW Wiki to list all of the changes TTW makes, but I only made an article about the addition of more flour, because tha twas one of the things I did for TTW and os I had listed already where I added them... So the will to list the changes is here, the time is just limited.


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MichaelDawn
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:29 pm

Yeah, no worries man. This is

Post by MichaelDawn » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:17 pm

Yeah, no worries man. This is one of the more impressive projects I've dealt with, and I really like the methodology and thought process I see you guys applying in cross-content discussions.


I was just trying to see if anyone has kept a running list of stuff and could point out the more obscure, unique changes (like original items, new item effects, etc.). But I totally understand that not it's a priority ATM.


Plus the mod is still in alpha, so things are subject to change. I'll figure it out on my own as I go. That's part of the fun anyway.



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