Big Guns

[tghs]

To be fair, Sniper builds have to get 8 Str to use the AMR in the first place so it makes a certain degree of sense.

Though I'll say it makes more sense for launchers to be Explosives category.

[Yossarian]

I would say, 90% of all weapon mods are clearly guns or melee. I don't think there are a lot of weapons for download, that would fall into category big guns. So, I don't think the argument it would disturb modded content is valid.

[Decker]

Sniper builds can use an AMR without an actual Strength attribute of 8.. Get the Perk:Weapon Handling (reduces all weapon strength requirements by 2), install a Strength implant for Strength +1, and the build is set to fully utilize AMR even if the starting Strength was only 5 (average joe). Also, using a weapon with one less Strength than required is not too bad either - Crouch for extra accuracy and aim carefully to compensate for the sway, AMR will still one-shot most targets with the right kind of ammo, especially if one manages to perform a surprise sneak attack.

However, the problem here is if you've got frex a Guns:100 pro-sniper build character with largely neglected Big Guns:20 or so picking up an AMR and noticing that for them it in fact does LESS damage than their regular .308 Sniper Rifle (if AMR indeed uses only Big Guns skill), essentially making an AMR to be a downgrade instead of an upgrade.

This situation, and others like it, are the main reason why I would much prefer Optional status for the Big Guns skill in TTW. Give the choice to the player, whether to play it like regular FNV, or to add the extra complexity of Big Guns skill.

 

[jlf65]

I've played sniper characters where at low levels, the sway was so bad it limited my rate of fire more than the weapon. It just "encourages" you to put points where it will help your character the quickest. In FO3, that might be big guns and endurance, while in FNV it's guns and strength. It's basically the same game play, you just have to know what skills/abilities affect what.

This is different between FO3 and FNV, so having FO3 under TTW use FNV rules is handy - you only need to learn one set of rules. If you're using TTW to play FO3 in a more stable environment or with extra features like different kinds of ammo, but want the same rules for skills/abilities, then the option of going back to big guns would be appreciated by those folks.

[darious24555]

I've been reading all the comments here, and I'd say no, based on the fact that 1) New vegas isn't built around having a Big Guns skill, and 2) There is no way to put weapons under 2 skills that they would overlap with. I think It'd be better to put more time into bugfixing than reviving Big Guns.

[EnderDragonFire]

I am actually very GLAD that the TTW team has started to pay attention to the needs of the portion of the community that uses TTW just to play Fallout 3 in a better engine. However, I think it would be wrong to prioritize that group over literally everyone else. Don't start ignoring the people who play TTW as a New Vegas Mod, or the people who play TTW as it's own game, and who want to see little change to New Vegas content. Trying to do right by one group by throwing another group under the bus seems rather insensitive. 

In my humble opinion, this would be the single biggest change to Vegas-side content in all of TTW if it was part of the core mod, and would represent a major change in TTW's design philosophy that many people don't want. It would be an IRREVERSIBLE change of direction for the project that would turn a lot of people away from using it. I really think that anything that so dramatically changes Vegas should stay optional.

TTW has always been (Fallout 3 + FNV) in one game. It has never tried to turn FNV into Fallout 3, wholesale. This is what this change would do, it would undermine New Vegas's gameplay for the sake of accurately reproducing a mechanic from Fallout 3.

Quite frankly, I shouldn't have to patch TTW in XEdit to make New Vegas weapons work like they do in New Vegas. This change would definitely qualify as "making how TTW already works different for those who are used to it as is." It wouldn't just be adding cool new stuff to bring in new players, it would be removing cool old stuff to alienate long term users. 

 

All of this is negated if the plugin is optional. As an optional plugin, it won't negatively affect anyone. So I say just make it optional or don't make it at all. 

[RoyBatty]

Everyone is going to hate something. There's a bunch of people that don't want us fixing the bugs either, didn't want us to change or add anything etc.

It's comes down to this, we seek feedback so we can make informed decisions about what can work and what can't.

Always keep in mind we mod for us first, if we don't we can't keep interested in a project as old as this. I like options myself, and I have created a lot of new ones so I can play the game how I want to play it. These things get mulled over, planned, discussed usually, and where it's not obtrusive they are added by default, or optionally.

Big Guns for me gives yet another option to keep these old games fresh, however as I've said before I don't think it will be by default even if that's easier to do. I've considered also making a "director's cut" of TTW, but I don't want to maintain multiple versions. That said I have a plan to make it so people can tailor TTW to fit their needs and keep the additional plugins down to very few or none at all. We'll see after 3.0 drop if this is viable or not.

There's already a ton of changes which many aren't going to like, and other people will love. That's just how it is, and you're gonna have to open up xEdit and/or GECK and change it if you don't like it. We're not catering to anyone, never have, never will. We will make TTW more accessible to multiple play styles, as this increases replayability and enjoyment, and even crafting a new experience whatever that may be.

[tghs]

[quote=RoyBatty]

We will make TTW more accessible to multiple play styles, as this increases replayability and enjoyment, and even crafting a new experience whatever that may be.

[/quote]

And thank the Atom for that!

I'm one of the folks who thought NV was better than 3 (because I started with Fallout 2 when I was a kid) but I've played through NV so many damn times now it would need something new to keep it fresh. TTW does just that, and regardless of how many features you add, I'll always think this mod is one of the greatest ever devised by the Beth community. 

Hell, I'm only just now posting on this 2+ y/o account because I can't contain my excitement for 3.0! Though at this point I'm not really adding much to the Big Guns discussion so this is probably my cue to leave 

[EnderDragonFire]

It's your mod, you make it how you want it. I am not trying to criticize your decisions, but rather to critique them. You asked for user feedback regarding this potential addition/change to the mod, so I told you what I think about the idea. I am STRONGLY opposed to feature creep in any project, I think that the "KISS" principle of design is important, and that you shouldn't fix what isn't broken. I am not trying to stop your from doing what you think is best with your mod; obviously you are doing this for yourselves first and foremost! 

I am strongly opposed to making this a part of the core mod. That is the feedback I am giving you. You have the right to completely disregard that feedback if you so choose! I only even posted it because you asked for community input. When you say "We're not catering to anyone, never have, never will." it makes me think you might have taken my feedback as a person insult, when it was not intended as such. I don't expect you to cater! I was just telling you what I thought because that's the point of this thread, right? 

I disagree with anyone (not just me!) having to manually remove features from a mod to restore vanilla functionality, when those features are not the main focus of the mod. It's a philosophical standpoint. TTW is not primarily a skill-overhaul mod, so I think those features should be separate and optional, not part of the main mod file. I didn't mean to sound indignant or angry when I said that. That's really just how I feel. 

[tawatabak]

i would love to have the big guns skill back

more skillz help the roleplay aspect of the game

and even if some people disagree with me on this, i think it should be part of the coregame, because ttw itself already has so many plugins (both coregames and all of the dlc's)

more skillz in general are a cool idea